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lkh_lashouts2006-04-12 07:43 pm
naeko.livejournal.com) wrote in lkh_lashouts2006-04-12 07:43 pm
Entry tags:
Frequently Used Arguments
I'm bored here at work, so I've snagged a list of arguments from both sides (meaning I scanned the ab_fan community and made notes on which side says what about the way the series is going) and I'm going to attempt to answer all of them. Well... being on the Anti-side, I'm having trouble refuting the anti- arguments, so I'm going to defend them, instead.
Anti-ABVH:
-There is too much sex (usually followed up with, 'not that i'm a prude')
Really, this is a matter of opinion, but I think it can actually be traced down to the last pro- argument in the bottom list: we didn't sign up for lots of sex, we signed up for intrigue and mystery solving.
-The copyediting/grammar is terrible
This is a proven fact. Anyone who disagrees with this should probably be slapped around a bit.
-The fandom would be boring if no one complained
This is mostly true. I'm a member of the forums over at indeath.net, where most everyone loves the In Death Series by JD Robb. Most of the topics there are "What's your favorite quote/book/character/scene" and then the obligatory trips to the casting couch. Really, how often can you say, "My favorite quote/book/etc is this" and not want to tear your own eyes out of your skull?
-Stop worshipping LKH
I saw this only a few times while scouting the community for arguments on both sides, so apparently it's a valid one. I can only guess that it refers to the fangirls who insist that every book is awesome and LKH can do no wrong. To that, I can only say that those people are annoying and leave it at that.
-The characters are totally OUT of character
This is, again, something that can be attributed to a matter of opinion. Some people think that how the books have progressed fits perfectly. After all, how can you have a single female surrounded by beautiful creatures and not have her eventually want to get busy with them?
It's simple: you set up this character as one who has traits ingrained into who she is that make this less likely. You give her a strong religious background, one that says that the vampires are the bad guys and they are not to be messed with. You start the series by making it clear that she has a prior relationship with one of the hottest vampires (JC) and that the relationship isn't pleasant or headed in a sexual direction. (IIRC, she didn't like JC much in GP). You give the main character a background that makes her wary of men and sex, and establish that she's got a strong will that has kept her from falling prey to any and all sexual urges for several years because of this (remember that college boyfriend who dumped her?). You write the story so that it's clear that she doesn't trust vampires and that she shouldn't because they are sneaky, underhanded, power-hungry, dangerous creatures who Should Not Be Trusted. And last but not least, you write her as spouting off (what should be) the most telling line in the whole series: I don't date vampires, I kill them.
You introduce a sexy French vampire who is so powerful and strong of will that he can hide several hundred years worth of age and powers from not only the Master Vampire leader of the whole city, but also from a Very Powerful Necromancer; and you certainly don't later make him weak-willed and emasculated. You introduce an alpha werewolf strong and strong-willed enough to also hide who and what he is from a Very Powerful Necromancer, and have him not only fight for the top position in the pack so that he can change it for the better, but also to go against his own moral code and EAT the former leader of the pack; you certainly don't then reduce him to a whimpering baby who can't even handle breaking up with his girlfriend.
But really, it is just a matter of opinion whether or not the characters have stayed true to themselves.
-There is no plot/There are plotholes
I guess this just depends on your definition of plot. My definition can be summed up by saying that a plot is the beginning, middle, and end of a story that is held together by a logical progression of events that eventually give the story itself a reason to be told. To me, the more recent Anita Blake books have been lacking such a thing. To me, a series of scenes strung together, and having only the characters from one scene to another in common does not denote a book with a plot. To me, there is no reason to write a book about a woman who has sex, briefly looks at a crime scene, has more sex, argues with a couple of Sexist Men, and then has more sex. I don't want to read that story. That story does not need to be told.
-Power of the month club
This is really another matter of opinion issue (most of the pro-abvh'ers don't seem to realize that everyone has their own opinions!). I don't like that the author can't be bothered to plan well enough to create a conflict that can be solved by the characters and powers already established in the series. I don't like the cop out of writing a problem so big that it can't be solved by what already exists, so it must be solved by pulling a new and completely unheard of, unfounded, and unrealistic plot device out of Anita's vagina. But, some people must like the New Things, and so this isn't an issue for them.
-Anita is just a Mary-Sue, a copy of LKH in a world she can control
Whether this is true or not, those of us that believe it certainly have our reasons: Anita is afraid of flying, LKH is afraid of flying; Anita lost her mother at a young age, LKH did as well; Anita left Richard (who became a simpering weakling) around the same time LKH got divorced from her old husband; Micah completes Anita, Jon completes LKH; Anita is described as looking like LKH. Etcetera, etcetera.
Pro-ABVH:
-If you don't like them, don't read them (#1 argument, by far)
This has two possible answers:
1. I did stop reading them back at [insert name of book that is most likely NiC here] but that doesn't change the fact that I'm unhappy with the current books. The fact that I haven't actually read the more recent books doesn't make them non-existant. The series is still being taken in a direction that I wholly don't like and don't want to read. The fact that I haven't read the most recent books doesn't change the fact that I liked the earlier ones and that I'm disappointed/mad at the fact that LKH has basically stopped writing the series that I liked, in favor of one that I don't want to read.
2. I loved the earlier books, and I don't like the recent ones. However, I'm still attached to the characters and curious about where LKH is taking them. I'm still curious about how they'll end up, and I'm hoping with every hair on my head that LKH is going to veer the series back to where it was and I'll get my heroine back. I'm going to keep slogging through the stories, because I want to see some semblence of the original character fight its way back onto the pages.
-The characters BELONG to LKH, not to you!
No one is disputing this. In fact, I don't think that anyone has even stipulated otherwise. We know the characters are not ours to control and that no matter how hard we want something to happen, the author is the end all of what happens to the characters. We just don't like what she's been making happen to the characters.
-Haters don't give reasons, they just complain
On the contrary, we give plenty of reasons; you just don't agree with them, so you don't see them as valid reasons.
-Why complain about the amount of sex, but not the amount of violence? Isn't this hypocritical/doesn't this show how screwed up our priorities are?
Quite frankly, because we signed up for the violence, not for the sex. We started reading these books because of the title "AB: Vampire Hunter" and kept reading them because of the corresponding content. We signed up for Anita kicking ass and taking names, and we signed up to watch her do it while standing by her religious morals and avoiding sexual tension. We didn't sign up to read about Anita's ridiculous sexual escapades and her inability to say no to anything with a penis. Also, some of us started reading the books despite the violence, more for the mystery and humor than anything else; just because we complain about the sex doesn't mean we condone the violence.
Disclaimer: I stopped reading after Cerulean Sins, because that, and Narcissus in Chains were two of the worst books I have ever read. I also haven't read a drop of LKH's work in over a year, so my knowledge is less than complete and not up to date. Feel free to correct, add to, or argue any of the points I've made.
Anti-ABVH:
-There is too much sex (usually followed up with, 'not that i'm a prude')
Really, this is a matter of opinion, but I think it can actually be traced down to the last pro- argument in the bottom list: we didn't sign up for lots of sex, we signed up for intrigue and mystery solving.
-The copyediting/grammar is terrible
This is a proven fact. Anyone who disagrees with this should probably be slapped around a bit.
-The fandom would be boring if no one complained
This is mostly true. I'm a member of the forums over at indeath.net, where most everyone loves the In Death Series by JD Robb. Most of the topics there are "What's your favorite quote/book/character/scene" and then the obligatory trips to the casting couch. Really, how often can you say, "My favorite quote/book/etc is this" and not want to tear your own eyes out of your skull?
-Stop worshipping LKH
I saw this only a few times while scouting the community for arguments on both sides, so apparently it's a valid one. I can only guess that it refers to the fangirls who insist that every book is awesome and LKH can do no wrong. To that, I can only say that those people are annoying and leave it at that.
-The characters are totally OUT of character
This is, again, something that can be attributed to a matter of opinion. Some people think that how the books have progressed fits perfectly. After all, how can you have a single female surrounded by beautiful creatures and not have her eventually want to get busy with them?
It's simple: you set up this character as one who has traits ingrained into who she is that make this less likely. You give her a strong religious background, one that says that the vampires are the bad guys and they are not to be messed with. You start the series by making it clear that she has a prior relationship with one of the hottest vampires (JC) and that the relationship isn't pleasant or headed in a sexual direction. (IIRC, she didn't like JC much in GP). You give the main character a background that makes her wary of men and sex, and establish that she's got a strong will that has kept her from falling prey to any and all sexual urges for several years because of this (remember that college boyfriend who dumped her?). You write the story so that it's clear that she doesn't trust vampires and that she shouldn't because they are sneaky, underhanded, power-hungry, dangerous creatures who Should Not Be Trusted. And last but not least, you write her as spouting off (what should be) the most telling line in the whole series: I don't date vampires, I kill them.
You introduce a sexy French vampire who is so powerful and strong of will that he can hide several hundred years worth of age and powers from not only the Master Vampire leader of the whole city, but also from a Very Powerful Necromancer; and you certainly don't later make him weak-willed and emasculated. You introduce an alpha werewolf strong and strong-willed enough to also hide who and what he is from a Very Powerful Necromancer, and have him not only fight for the top position in the pack so that he can change it for the better, but also to go against his own moral code and EAT the former leader of the pack; you certainly don't then reduce him to a whimpering baby who can't even handle breaking up with his girlfriend.
But really, it is just a matter of opinion whether or not the characters have stayed true to themselves.
-There is no plot/There are plotholes
I guess this just depends on your definition of plot. My definition can be summed up by saying that a plot is the beginning, middle, and end of a story that is held together by a logical progression of events that eventually give the story itself a reason to be told. To me, the more recent Anita Blake books have been lacking such a thing. To me, a series of scenes strung together, and having only the characters from one scene to another in common does not denote a book with a plot. To me, there is no reason to write a book about a woman who has sex, briefly looks at a crime scene, has more sex, argues with a couple of Sexist Men, and then has more sex. I don't want to read that story. That story does not need to be told.
-Power of the month club
This is really another matter of opinion issue (most of the pro-abvh'ers don't seem to realize that everyone has their own opinions!). I don't like that the author can't be bothered to plan well enough to create a conflict that can be solved by the characters and powers already established in the series. I don't like the cop out of writing a problem so big that it can't be solved by what already exists, so it must be solved by pulling a new and completely unheard of, unfounded, and unrealistic plot device out of Anita's vagina. But, some people must like the New Things, and so this isn't an issue for them.
-Anita is just a Mary-Sue, a copy of LKH in a world she can control
Whether this is true or not, those of us that believe it certainly have our reasons: Anita is afraid of flying, LKH is afraid of flying; Anita lost her mother at a young age, LKH did as well; Anita left Richard (who became a simpering weakling) around the same time LKH got divorced from her old husband; Micah completes Anita, Jon completes LKH; Anita is described as looking like LKH. Etcetera, etcetera.
Pro-ABVH:
-If you don't like them, don't read them (#1 argument, by far)
This has two possible answers:
1. I did stop reading them back at [insert name of book that is most likely NiC here] but that doesn't change the fact that I'm unhappy with the current books. The fact that I haven't actually read the more recent books doesn't make them non-existant. The series is still being taken in a direction that I wholly don't like and don't want to read. The fact that I haven't read the most recent books doesn't change the fact that I liked the earlier ones and that I'm disappointed/mad at the fact that LKH has basically stopped writing the series that I liked, in favor of one that I don't want to read.
2. I loved the earlier books, and I don't like the recent ones. However, I'm still attached to the characters and curious about where LKH is taking them. I'm still curious about how they'll end up, and I'm hoping with every hair on my head that LKH is going to veer the series back to where it was and I'll get my heroine back. I'm going to keep slogging through the stories, because I want to see some semblence of the original character fight its way back onto the pages.
-The characters BELONG to LKH, not to you!
No one is disputing this. In fact, I don't think that anyone has even stipulated otherwise. We know the characters are not ours to control and that no matter how hard we want something to happen, the author is the end all of what happens to the characters. We just don't like what she's been making happen to the characters.
-Haters don't give reasons, they just complain
On the contrary, we give plenty of reasons; you just don't agree with them, so you don't see them as valid reasons.
-Why complain about the amount of sex, but not the amount of violence? Isn't this hypocritical/doesn't this show how screwed up our priorities are?
Quite frankly, because we signed up for the violence, not for the sex. We started reading these books because of the title "AB: Vampire Hunter" and kept reading them because of the corresponding content. We signed up for Anita kicking ass and taking names, and we signed up to watch her do it while standing by her religious morals and avoiding sexual tension. We didn't sign up to read about Anita's ridiculous sexual escapades and her inability to say no to anything with a penis. Also, some of us started reading the books despite the violence, more for the mystery and humor than anything else; just because we complain about the sex doesn't mean we condone the violence.
Disclaimer: I stopped reading after Cerulean Sins, because that, and Narcissus in Chains were two of the worst books I have ever read. I also haven't read a drop of LKH's work in over a year, so my knowledge is less than complete and not up to date. Feel free to correct, add to, or argue any of the points I've made.
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It's the bit you get to later, that the sex doesn't arise organically from the storyline. It's pastede on, yay. It's like in books one-eight, or maybe nine, I lose count, Anita is all "Chastity till marriage!" And then, with little to no character growth, she's all "Nice boots. Wanna fuck?" And "Oooh, Requiem. Is that your real name?" When you change a character drastically, you need to take the readers with you. You mention the "In Death" series. (Okay, I read the damn "In Death" books. And I like them. Please don't take my English major card away. :) ) That series is a good example. Nora Roberts does a good job of showing the audience how Roarke and Peabody and all of Eve's post-married life slowly changes her. Over the course of several books, she starts to become a more open person who is more capable of showing love and concern, and actually caring about the people in her life. And Nora Roberts takes you with Eve on that journey. It's good character development. And we're not talking about a masterwork of Western culture, here. We're talking about relatively puply mass market paperbacks with plenty of shootouts and crazy kinky sex, you know? :)
This new hypersexual Anita didn't *develop*, she sprang upon us like a chick out of a cake at a stag party. When she got it on with JC for the first time, that was believable. There was the build up in Bloody Bones, and then when they finally did it, it seemed totally natural. You understood why these characters would be acting this way right now. Then it was like, whammo! If you're sleeping with one guy, might as well do 'em all.
Btw, nice post. :)
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That's what I get for posting a comment without re-reading.
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Ahahahahaha!
I know exactly what you mean, though.
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I had to flat out quit and defriend the AB_fan comm because it was all the same stuff over and over and none of the rabid fangirls were listening to anyone who didn't think the books were progressing logically.
Really. If the sex was presented in all the recent books as it was in... *brain fart* shit, whichever one she first screws JC, I wouldn't bitch. I don't mind sex, even in books that aren't advertised as being at all sexual (to be honest, though, I skim it in most books), I just don't want to read pages and pages and chapters of it.
Even Blue Moon was a problem for me; Anita didn't sleep with everyone, but I must say that the whole Raina taking her over and making every male in both packs chase after her was really stupid. As an excuse for her to screw Richard, it could have been better. I still adored the book, though, so no big.
This new hypersexual Anita didn't *develop*, she sprang upon us like a chick out of a cake at a stag party.
Completely true, and I honestly don't know how so many people can get away with just not SEEING that.
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That's actually been another gripe of mine as far as book development has gone. It's like all the preternatural people, all they do is sit around and be weird and creepy. Just because you're a werewolf doesn't mean your toilet cleans itself, you know. I'd like to think these people have lives and stuff, and aren't just always sitting around being spooky like Sir Simon Milligan and Manservant Hecubus.
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I get it, and I hate it. The reason is actually pretty simple...LKH seems to think she has to make every sex scene mystical or metaphysical or supernatural. She seems totally incapable of finding normal reasons sexual activity...almost every sex scene in every one of the recent books, it's more of a "gee, Anita HAS to do it, someone or something else is FORCING HER" as opposed to the character's own free will. The rape-chase thing was just another way to make Anita look like a victim of male agression, unwanted lust, instead of having Anita come right out and instigate intimacy with Richard just because she wants to.
LKH also uses it as a wellspring of really boring ANGST.
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It's ludicrous. And ties into my complaint about the were and vampire cultures being way too oh woes teh drama. :)
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Oh hell yes, it was absolutely stupid.
"I mean, who *does* that? Who is all like, "Okay, so guys, we're going to have this, like, cultural tradition? Where we all chase a woman down and the first one who gets her gets to, like, *do* her.""
I know. It's just silly in a SO not funny way.
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The bit with Anita's rape-tag didn't have anything to do with perpetuation of the species, much of werewolf tradition and was a fairly flimsy excuse to get Richard and Anita to have sex.
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I think I was under the impression Raina wanted to hurt Richard, not get Anita pack-raped.
I want Raina to come back from the dead and kill Richard. Then I will buy the damn books.
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Even when I still liked reading the books the copy editing, constant repetition of the character descriptions, overuse of metaphors, etc drove me crazy and I bitched about them. But it used to be that the plot and characters were enough to overlook that. But now... well, it just saddens me to see Anita screwing everything with a penis and not even being conflicted about it in the least. Where is my badass little angry woman with a gun and issues? Now the books just feel like 600 pages worth of bad fanfiction. So disappointing. :/
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It's my take on that form letter response someone suggested recently here in the comm. I would love to add to it, as well, if anyone else brings up arguments I missed, or new ones crop up. *snort* Almost like a Wikipedia for ABVH whiners...
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Whether this is true or not, those of us that believe it certainly have our reasons: Anita is afraid of flying, LKH is afraid of flying; Anita lost her mother at a young age, LKH did as well; Anita left Richard (who became a simpering weakling) around the same time LKH got divorced from her old husband; Micah completes Anita, Jon completes LKH. Etcetera, etcetera.
Anita looks just like the dolled-up version of LKH on her bookjackets (and if you've met her at a signing, she doesn't look like that when her hair's not dyed, she's in denim, and she's not wearing vampire makeup). Honestly, I think she's a nice person (or at least was, back when I met her, pre-loony blog).
-Why complain about the amount of sex, but not the amount of violence? Isn't this hypocritical/doesn't this show how screwed up our priorities are?
I started reading them for the mystery-solving and humor, despite the violence (I'm not a horror fan) -- but I knew about the violence going in. I didn't realize they'd turn into an endless progression of cheesy, cookie-cutter sex scenes, minus the mystery-solving and humor.
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-Dira-
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I heart you, biglots.
For the "no one complaining" thing - the Jim Butcher one is pretty much the same. Everyone in the communities love it, and about the only posts we get are when there's A) icons on offer, B) something new about a book or the Sci-Fi Channel movie thing, or C) there's a Buffy analysis. Rarely there's a question RE: this or that with a book/plot, and that's it. Everyone loves it to death. No drama. All is quiet on the Jim Butcher front.
And another argument for the anti- is that the pr0n. is. terrible. It's all copy 'n' pastede on with insert tab A into slot B, cue orgasms and funky shit, followed by introspective thoughts/discussion.