Problems in Urban Fantasy

[the-mome-wrath.livejournal.com]

I found this three part article on the urban fantasy genre and the second part covered many of the cliches and annoyances of the genre. Sadly it seems the genre really is becoming formulaic. It doesn't name any series as examples, but as I was reading down the list I found that unsurprisingly LKH is in violation of many of them. The only thing I really noticed on the list that we haven't seen in the books yet is the lower back tattoo. Anita should get a tattoo, but it should say something like 'run while you still have a personality.'

For your reading enjoyment, here's the articles:

Urban Fantasy Part 1: The Formula
Urban Fantasy Part 2: When Things Go Wrong
Urban Fantasy Part 3: Deconstructing Urban Fantasy

Comments

[korinna.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything to contribute, but thanks for linking that - definitely a good, well considered read.

[bleedtoblue.livejournal.com]

Interesting viewpoints! Thanks for the link.

[othellia.livejournal.com]

I have a new appreciation and respect for Carrie Vaughn now. That said, was I the only one who thought of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOB1bU0plos) when she mentioned Fabio in Part 2?

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

The second link pretty much sounded like a full-on description of Anita!

I was particularly struck by the part about how we're still apologizing for strong women. Even today, when they get praised, it seems they can only be so strong without being reprimanded, and being sexy is still the most important thing. I remember watching Van Hell sing and just gagging at what was supposed to be a strong female. The only decent part was when she stabbed the lady-vamp and said the line about her talking too much. And Anita...she's strong, but not in a positive way. She's villain-strong. She's pretty much what sexist jerks fear that a strong woman will be, and that's not empowering or advanced at all. Making women in power or sexual women evil is one of the the oldest tricks there is, and LKH doesn't even realize she's doing it.

I did not realize that this anti-blonde bigotry was rampant, though. I thought this was just LKH using Anita as a mouthpiece again and/or giving Anita a really transparent excuse to whine.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Very well said, all of it. Now I kind of want to read her books, actually... Has anyone read them? Are they any good?

[the-mome-wrath.livejournal.com]

Even if the anti-blonde bigotry is rampant, it doesn't change the fact LKH is using Anita as a mouthpiece and excuse to be able to whine.

[gabe-speaks.livejournal.com]

In writing class, one fellow student gave us a story with a 'strong female character'. But... something about it bothered me; namely, this person is someone with whom I've had the pleasure [no irony] of being in several writing classes.

And just about each story that focuses on female protagonist always ended the same way--the woman striking out against a repressive man. Usually quite literally. He usually gets praised for it. Never mind that he writes just the striking out part and never what it MEANS to be a strong woman... probably for obvious reasons.


Finally, after about 2 1/2 years and 4 classes of this, I pointed out that he was using his very male definition of 'strength', pasting it on top of his female character, and, basically, tricking us all--intentionally or not--into thinking she's a token of femininity.

But... is she?

When I read stories of women being "just as strong as men", I actually think I've read the deterioration of a character, not her elevation.

When we watch television shows or movies of women being terrorized by men and finally deciding to fight back, we see very visual representations of devolution, of a woman being less woman, more animal. Now, is that because she's needing to rely on animal instincts to survive, or because she's taking herself down to the level of her male antagonist? Invariably, in the movies, at least, we get that final moment when the woman pulls back and lifts herself back up to her 'normal' level--she's realized that she has devolved too much.

I guess my point--or concern, really--is that we praise 'strong women', yet define that 'strength' by how much "like a man" she is.

Is that really making her a strong woman? Or just a male copy-cat?

Is that because cunning and intelligent revenge is just... not interesting to watch unfold? Could a woman who relies on 'hyper-feminine' traits to protect herself, overcome her enemies, and/or exact revenge simply be too sleepy-time to read or make into a movie? Is that akin to a story about a 'real man' taking responsibility for the babies he help makes, does his share of housework, and works is lackluster; but showing a 'real man' fighting, defending, and showing actual physical strength isn't?

To me, it seems to me that lowering-to-their-level is still lowering to their level--even if it's to show a 'strong' woman. But... I may be just... missing something. Defining a strong woman by boiling her character down to its component parts and showing how much like a dude those parts are is... somehow not exactly right.

I haven't rad much of the genre, tho', to be honest... are there stories/series out there that, knowing how i feel about this particular trope, would show that writers understand such dilemmas and/or are addressing them?

Thanks everyone.

[the-mome-wrath.livejournal.com]

I agree that to an extent people that trying to write a strong woman tend to try and make her like a man. They beat the reader over the head with how much better than the boys she is, or how them men feel threatened by her to constantly remind the reader that she's strong. It's as if they don't know how else to show the readers that this character they've written is strong, or are afraid you forgot it since the last page where they showed you.

The other way writers seem to try and reinforce the fact that the woman is strong is by constantly making her reject things that are traditionally feminine. It's like the writer is constantly screaming at you 'Look how much of a tomboy she is! Look how different from other women she is!' It's combating a stereotype with another stereotype.

Needless to say this can quickly get irritating, as good literature tends to be more subtle than a sledgehammer. But using these methods is easier than writing a female character that likes ribbons and unicorns and will beat the tar out of you if you dare to hurt the people she loves.

[countessof-roth.livejournal.com]

I have. THey are the only urban "fantasy" that i can read. My husband LURRRVES LKH, and that genre (i don't know WHY but he does) and well, those are the only books in that genre that I will read and enjoy.


Most of the other books in that genre irritate me because the characters are in no way shape or form believable- they are VERY 2 dimensional and wooden- These books, the main character seems, well, more real.

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Might give it a try, I have some Borders's Bucks to spare and I need something to read while waiting for Turn Coat....

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

While I don't agree that brute force is inherently male or that cunning is inherently female, I do agree that society seems to see it that way, and the view tends to be that "stereotypically feminine" equals weak and "stereotypically masculine" equals strong. And that's just not right, and result in, as you said, the idea that there's no way a woman can be strong without being stereotypically masculine, and this idea is very dangerous, since women are brought up in our society to fear seeming "masculine" at all cost, for it is presented as unattractive on a female in media when it isn't "glorified" as in the case of Anita, and women are told that being attractive in our culture matters above all else for their sex. Even the "strong" women out there have to always be sexy first. In other words the message seems to be "You can't be strong unless you adhere to these traits which we have told you are male....and thus make you ugly, which you should never ever be!"

So, in others words...in order to be "attractive" and "feminine" you also have to be weak. And I don't buy that. A hyper-feminine ass-kicker of either gender is very much needed.

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

Here's where I admit to a guilty pleasure. I love the bit in 'Barb Wire' where she impales a guy on her shoe for calling her 'babe', and when, after shooting up a room, she stands in the ruins and says "Damn. I broke a nail!". I know it's a terrible movie, and Pamela Anderson really can't act, but I love those bits :D

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

Haha! I've never seen that, but it sounds awesome. Well, that part does. My friend has an RP character who is very glamorous, beautiful, and sexy, and I consider her a really feminist character, since just because she's "feminine" in no way makes her a pushover. She's a diva, a queen, and she enjoys sex for herself instead of just being there to inspire desire in others. She's girly, glitzy, loves rhintesones and feather boas and dressing up as Marie Antoinette, but she's also no-nonsense and kickass. I think replacing Anita with her would make for better books. Except, you know, she's blond and thus eeeevil *eyeroll*

I've also always wanted to see an over-the-top "queen" of a gay man being powerful, a strong fighter, etc., and fleshed out into a whole personality in a work of fiction, since too many times I've seen that stock character simply pulled out too many times to serve as comic relief and painted as weak simply because of his femininity and sexuality, and as being nothing more than his orientation. I know this seems kind of a tangent, but I think the need for genuinely strong female characters is superseded only by the need for strong gay male characters, be they Brokeback Mountain manly-men or The Birdcage queens, or somewhere in-between like most that I know are, and not written as "wussy" because of it or as strong "despite" their sexuality >:I

[pastygothchick.livejournal.com]

Have you read "The Warrior" from Mean Streets yet?

[pastygothchick.livejournal.com]

I have no good bookstores where I live. I order pretty much everything from the net.

I got some mailings about "Mean Streets" which got me into the Nightside series. I was totally blown away by Simon R. Green. I'm reading my way through all of his books.

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Oh yes! My Roomie found a copy while visiting her folks and grabbed one. I devoured that while she got through 'Day Off' and 'Its My Birthday Too' Add in Back Up and it was a very Harry Christmas in our apartment.

[pastygothchick.livejournal.com]

I have "Blue Moon Rising" its on the list after the Hawk & Fisher series. I use Amazon.com and avoid the shipping cost by ordering more that $25 of stuff at a time. It takes longer to get it, but I figure "I can get a whole other book instead of paying shipping." I'd have to drive about 40 miles one way to get to the nearest Borders, it's just cheaper for me even if I have to pay shipping.

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Noooo! We almost have all the Harry Stories! We are only missing Supernatural Wedding! (we have read the story...but lack an actual copy of the book)

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

*cough* Charity Carpenter *cough* Molly Weasley *cough*

Yeah not enough of those women IMO but I don't think they are glamorous enough for most people *eyroll* Don't know about you but I don't wanna mess with EITHER of them.

I have a heroine who is a martial artist...so is her SO but they fight very differently, she's strong...but relies on speed and agility in fights, while he relies on strength and power. Both hightly effective but very different.

[pastygothchick.livejournal.com]

If the characters really are fighting for their lives in a book, throw out the rules about where you hit. I learned about certain pressure points and weak points in the body. There are places you don't have to hit very hard to make someone go down. For a few of them, people won't be getting back up again.

You don't need a specialized weapon to hurt someone badly. Sometimes all you need is a set of keys.

[clover-elf-kin.livejournal.com]

"Who the hell are you?"

"I'm a HOUSEWIFE!"

...Izumi Curtis rocks. That is all. XD

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Hows about Chi Chi from Dragonball Z? (not the greatest show I know) but you KNOW you have a strong and tough woman when beings that can destroy planets tremble before her wrath. *eeps*

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, improv weapons and fighting with what you got is such fun to script. I enjoy tossing stuff in there that is so different from the classic martial arts face off.

Though I haven't found the topper to Jim's Frozen Turkey bit....granted not what you are talking about, but DUDE...how often can you work a Frozen Turkey into a fight scene...and make it work?

[pastygothchick.livejournal.com]

Next trick, anvils.

I like to read about the odd, million to one occurrences that actually happen. There is truth out there stranger than fiction.

[easol.livejournal.com]

The one that came out a week ago or the one before that?

[easol.livejournal.com]

That scene was full of awesome. "I'M A HOUSEWIFE!"

[yaoihuntresse.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more. Being strong is more than thinking with your fists\weapons, destroying your emmotions, and not caring about others. Characters who use their brains as well as their fists make for much more interesting stories.

[yaoihuntresse.livejournal.com]

It's something I like to call "Calamity Jane Syndrome". I got the term from a short-lived cartoon series called The Adventures of Calamity Jane. The problem was the writers were trying so hard to make Jane a "strong female heroine" by never letting her potray "soft" emmotions, be repulsed by men who flirt\comment on her looks, act uber-tough and little else, and hell, the original voice actress was replaced at the last minute because she made Jane's voice "too feminie." As a result Jane was a boring character and her show was off the air in less than five weeks.

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

I agree with the overall "man and women are different - embrace it!" theme but... Molly Weasley aggravates me deeply. I liked her right up until I realized that she wasn't EVER going to take Dumbledore to task over Harry. (And that slapping Hermione bit w/ a lame gift was crap. If you're going to adopt kids then by God adopt them. No treating them differently when you read a rag!) In fact, I found her determined blindness disturbing.

Maybe Minerva McGonagall as a stong woman? She never has a date, isn't gorgous, is past her prime, and is a teacher. A really stern bad-ass teacher. (Although her blind moments irk me too.)

Hmmmm.... I'm totally behind FMA's Izumi as strong-woman of the year. Her, in the AB world = priceless

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Heck my roomie gave me Back Up as a X-Mas Gift, she had it hidden among her seven bookshelves for weeks and I had no clue...

Granted I had the Tales of Beedle the Bard (collectors) on order since July for her...yes we do evil over the top giving can't ya tell?

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

IMO if a character doesnt have some traits that annoy the crap out of you depite your love for them...then there is something wrong with the char!

Molly's blind moments annoy me too, but damn you had to be an idiot not to fear for your life if you were between her and somebody who hurt her kids, and the fact she survived raising Fred and George and was willing to have kids after those two clasifies her as a Strong Woman.

Heck I was ready to punt Charity though a wall for her first few appearances then she grew on me, Jim articulated her reasoning (before the reveal) better than JKR did for Molly...locked into Harry's POV might have hurt Rowling's ability to pull this off thou.

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

*shudders at the thought of raising Fred and George - a hundred Strong Woman points for even making it through their first words*

Good points!

I never understood why JKR was so locked into Harry's POV since she obviously needed to step out of it from time to time to make the story work at all. (Setting Snape & DADA teacher on fire, Pettigrew offing the groundskeeper at the Riddle estate, etc.) With that in mind, just suck it up and write multiple POVs.

To be fair, even if I loathe a character's reasoning/logic/knee jerk reaction, I'm always more sympathetic if it either comes from their POV or have had enough of a taste of their POV to have some clue about where they're coming from. Since there is no insight into Molly, she can irritate me more than she probably should. (The exception to this is in drek. Wheel of Time? Lan's the only character who never gets a POV and therefore he is my favorite.)

Charity by Jim --> Jim Butcher? (*shamefully admits to be unsure as to who or where this character originates from as she eyes the two Butcher-books from Christmas.*)

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

I'm having visions of LKH not moving Anita gently or carefully enough which causes the entire world to overbalance one way and tip on it's side. And of course the members of her harem just sigh because they're used to this. JC would be fussing with his hair and clothes while Asher would snap out something about cutting back. The bad guys would stomp their feet on the floor-that-is-now-a-sideways-tilted-wall and whine about deserve a redo of the shootout.

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Yes Charity is a char in the Dresden Files, she's the wife of a close friend of Harry's. You first meet in her in Book 3 (Grave Peril) and she doesn't really come into her own until Book 8 (Proven Guilty) and Book 10 (Small Favor).

I highly recommend the Dresden Files, Jim can get a bit repetive with some things but overall the world and the chars are well thought out and engaging.

[yaoihuntresse.livejournal.com]

That's how I feel about Dragonball Z. When the characters literally say that they don't have to worry about casualties because wish everything back with the dragonballs, that's just boring to me.

[morriganscrow.livejournal.com]

So many good things said here - and those articles are well worth a thorough study.
I thought the comments about the gay characters particularly interesting, as I'm in the planning stages of a fantasy story where one of the two main characters, Dragonfly, is a young gay guy, still growing into himself physically and sexually, as well as the usual 'solve the mystery of my birth' and 'where did my weird, kick-ass armor come from' stuff.
I have the benefit of house sharing with a young gay man, who's not a complete queen, and my son is FTM trans, and clearly masculine, both of which will, I think, be of considerable value as I flesh out the ideas.
The comments about Anita tipping the world over as LKH forcibly moves her through it are spot on, and as this is one of my major peeves with both the character and the series, most apt.

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

I loathe DBZ! Just die and stay dead! The only good thing about DBZ is if you miss twenty episodes, so what? They're probably just finishing the opening power-ups and threats. Stupid Deus ex machina dragonballs!

[yaoihuntresse.livejournal.com]

It's the most overrated anime ever. Not to mention that Bulma makes me want to punch her, Akira Toriyama as a character designer blantantly rips-off his own designs, and what you mentioned. Give me Jo-Jo's Bizaree Adventures any day. The way Jo-Jo mindfucks that evil, soul-steal gambler is a thousand times more entertaining than anything that pea-brain-and-proud-of-it Goku can do.

[booster-blue.livejournal.com]

Evangelion has DBZ beat on the overrated scale. DBZ fans tend to know that their most favorite show is a load of steroid injected garbage. Eva folk? I dare you to say something bad about that show in their presence.

[yaoihuntresse.livejournal.com]

Good point. Forgot about that series.

[revelininsanity.livejournal.com]

Do the Mercy Briggs books get better? I read the first one and was so turned OFF by how similar it was to Anita Blake I never read anymore.

[revelininsanity.livejournal.com]

Well, I found the whole "half First Nations" werecoyote thing kind of irritating, especially since it was kind of an Anita Blake-esque "I never have to do deal with any actual racism because I look white" kind of thing(that's how it came across to me. My mom works with First Nations families in the inner city, though, so I might be reading too much into it and being an annoying Guilty White Person), then she killed the kid(SRSLY? WHO DOES THAT?), then she and the werewolf guy had a very non-interesting chemistry based around the fact that he was an asshole and she was a SPUNKY HEROINE.

I did like the cop, though, and the single mom.

[revelininsanity.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk. I have a tendency to miss social cues, so I apologize if I did.

[revelininsanity.livejournal.com]

Well, I am DEFINITELY going to think it over. I mean, I read Rob Thurman's Cal Leandros' series, so how bad can it be? And I do love brain candy.