Her Royal Gawthiness!

[saucyirishlass.livejournal.com]

So, I'm afraid I've been thinking - a dangerous pasttime, I know - and I thought that, like with my curiosity about BDSM, it would be a good question to put to you folks.


Mostly copy-and-pasted from the Amazon board:

We all know that LKH likes to go on about how Goth she is and how dark her insides are, etc. And she has been repeatedly denounced and mocked for it, and it led me to think that a discussion on it could be rather eye-opening and entertaining.

It's a subculture that I've always been intrigued by but felt that I had missed the boat on (by the time it was relevant to me age-wise, 'Goth' had become more a label than a mentality - I'm 19 now) so I didn't feel terribly compelled to research it. Then I met (and subsequently fell for) an older guy who had been involved in the subculture for a little over a decade (he's stopped being as involved for years now and says that the thing that still connects him to it is mostly the music), and he revived my curiosity.

After a blog entry about the darkity-dark-darkness in LKH's oh-so Gawthy soul, I asked him to define 'Goth' for me, and he said that it couldn't be defined, that Amy Lee is considered Goth because she wears wedding dresses and black eyeliner but that Evanescence doesn't sound even remotely Goth (silly me, I forgot to ask him what Goth sounds like). His point being, how do you define something that has either been lost or expanded to include so much that it's virtually meaningless now?

So, I did some light research on the topic, and the common thread I found was introspection - exploring, understanding, and accepting what's inside of you - and that seems to explain all the other aspects, even those that people disagree on. The 'obsession' with death and darkness - which is blown way out of proportion by the media - the appreciation and acceptance of individuality, in appearance as well as ideas, etc.

One of the websites I found - Sunlight & Shadows - offered quite a bit of insight and also posted a list of characteristics attributed to Goths. And as I was reading it, I discovered 'hey, that could be me' even though I've never really considered myself Goth because of what the term had come to mean to my generation. In addition, the list seemed to describe me far more than it did the guy I was/am involved with, even though he had far more involvement and legitimate claim to the description than I did, and that made me even more curious about how the term is viewed by those who consider themselves Goth.

So, how do you personally define Goth? Can it be defined? Has the term expanded to the point that anyone who likes heavy eyeliner and has a penchant for black can be considered Goth? Has what the subculture originally stood for become obsolete? And last but not least, do you consider LKH Goth?

Comments

[becisvolatile.livejournal.com]

Randomly, I'm going to be singing the Gaston song all day. Thanks for that.

[saucyirishlass.livejournal.com]

Haha, you've uncovered my evil plot! ;)

Your icon makes me laugh, by the way.

[booster-blue.livejournal.com]

In my world I've divided Goth into subcategories: Trend!Goth, Poe!Goth, Fashion!Goth.

Trend!Goth is pretty self-explanatory. They're the cookie cutter types. The MySpace, dark eyeliner, woe is me, 15 to 24 years olds that spend most of their time bragging about how dark and mysterious they are.

Poe!Goths, to me, are those who have a decidedly bleak outlook on life. Not to say they're morbidly depressed, or anything, but that they don't shy away from what is commonly seen as Bad Things. They find beauty in what the rest of society does not. Death is a thing of beauty - and not just some abstract glamourized idea of it. A few of my goth friends actually refer to themselves as Poe goths, but a few like Victorian better. *shrugs*

Fashion!Goth. I didn't really thing of this group until I saw how the EGL/EGA fashion of Japan was picking up in the West. These folk can easily look the part, and may be very passionate about it, but once the frills, black T-shirt,and make up is off, they're your average joe. Fashion and Trend Goths have a lot of crossover so the two could, eventually, become interchangeable.


As for LKH, I'd put her in the trend category. She's trying far too hard to be edgey, and figures that the goth label will keep her "hip to the times."

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

I find that Trend!Goths tend to bleed into other subcultures - emo and punk, mostly. The tight black clothing will have a few spikes added to it, or include those friggin' sleeves that every emokid wears as if to imply that he's hiding cut scars (whether or not they're actually even there). Really, they aren't actually goths or emos or punks, they're just... posers. Posers that listen to mostly Evanescence and Linkin' Park and write 548392 songfics to the same goddamn songs and whine about how much they hate their parents and how nobody understands them.

There needs to be a word that describes these people. -.-;

/bitchwhine

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

I met LKH at a book signing. She's not goth, at least what I consider goth to be. She wears black because she's fat and it's slimming.

Understand, I'm 44 (for 24 more hours...sob!), and my definition of goth may sound harsh. But when I hear the term, I think of little Emo-type teens running around in black clothing and clown face makeup, who listen to early Marilyn Manson, cut themselves and bitch and whine about how thery're misunderstood. Generational rationality? You bet.

LKH is a fucked up middle aged woman who thinks she's locked into the goth mentality, but she's not. She does this because she thinks it's hip. She's not. She thinks she's writing dark erotica. She's not. She writes pulp Penthouse Forum crap, and frankly, I've read better sex in Penthouse and Cock-n-Bull. Way better. And that's sad.

I've met Jon. He's what we used to call on my old board a Keebler Elf. I remember thinking, "He's hitting on me!" The woman I was with got the same vibe. He's sleazy. He had (in 03) long, thinning hair in a pontytail and tight jeans. Quite frankly, methinks the lady doth protest WAY too much, cause I wasn't impressed with the package. Yes, I looked. lol He's so far from goth it ain't funny. He looks like an aging roadie.

Sorry, went OT, SUN

[stefflebug.livejournal.com]

Happy birthday?

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

Happy birthday, and well said :)

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

I've been staring at your icon for far too long. -.-;

[gothgoddessrhia.livejournal.com]

Your definition of goth is the media created one. Trust me, that isn't the reality. Now if LKH buys into the media stereotype I'm not sure what that says about her.

I'm goth and 37 and have been in the scene for over a decade. Unfortunately the tag "goth" gets thrown onto whatever whiney/baby trend young kids are latching onto. The "I'm so dark and morbid" kids.

All the goths I know are quite happy, well-educated, and cool people to be about.

[vmisery.livejournal.com]

Gothic:

3: often not capitalized : of or relating to a style of fiction characterized by the use of desolate or remote settings and macabre, mysterious, or violent incidents

This is what comes to mind for me when I think about gothic. More the literary definition. I never really got into the whole music/fashion thing: for me, gothic is about finding the beauty and fascination with death, decay, isolation, and other moderately morbid aspects of life. Sure, there's a lot of romanticism going on with it, but I think deep down it's looking at the things that scare us and cozying up to them trying to understand why they're so fascinating, rather than recoiling.

[alex-lebeau.livejournal.com]

It's an outlook? That's how I've always seen it. The trendy little shits who shop constantly at Hot Topic...are not goth. They are confused. They may also be misguided Raver children.

I went to the local Pirate Festival this week (yes, my little town had a pirate fest!), dressed in a vintage 80's dress I bought off eBay for $20. This dress has a plastic corset waist and is mostly black lace over a purple top bodice with an uneven hem. Wide lace shoulder straps. It isn't excessively crazy in my opinion, just long enough for short little me to need my heeled boots. With this I wore my Redballs coat (to which I offer this link (http://cgi.ebay.com/REDBALLS-HELL-COAT-LONG-BLACK-BONDAGE-TRENCH-SEXY-GOTH_W0QQitemZ140092807197QQihZ004QQcategoryZ63860QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) which isn't the same one I have, but close enough), and that was it. No makeup (which, if I'm really going all out, is maybe purple lipstick or dark red tinted lip balm), and just a red beaded 1928 choker.

At the end of the day, I had a guy call me from the balcony at Schooner Pub calling me "Gothique!" When I just ignored him, he came down and asked me to join him, and said he was impressed to see a goth at a pirate festival who wasn't "dressing up." Mind you. He picked me out from a fair distance, in just a dress and coat. Damned talent, that is.

My job doesn't allow for anything outside of our uniform. I don't dress up extravagantly when I have off, though I dress nice; mostly in dress black slacks or shirts, gypsy skirts or dresses, and my Docs, which are generally hidden under the pants. LKH, being a genuinely unintelligent human being on the matter of subculture, thinks being goth is constantly dressing up for a pageant whenever she goes to signings. As if it's a game. As if she's a teenager going to Hot Topic and being therefore "edgy" and "cool" by buying tight black clothes that don't fit her properly.

Poe!Goths is an interesting way to describe some of us, but I'll accept it. :D I would add that it's not somuch a "bleak" outlook, but perhaps a resignation of the fact that Life Sucks. Me, I'm a pessimist usually. But I'm also athiest, which means I hold no faith in religion, or in the idea that one needs religion to make life somehow make more sense. Life doesn't make sense. Life is cruel, shitty, happy, great, sad, and everything it can be. Death comes after life. Funerals are for the living. And spiritualism means something else than faith in organized religion

Wow, I've rambled.

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

Gothdar is a wonderful thing :D If you've been a goth long enough, you learn to spot other goths in crowds, anywhere.

You also learn the subtle distinction between goths and metallers who want to cop off with goths :D

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

I would add that it's not somuch a "bleak" outlook, but perhaps a resignation of the fact that Life Sucks. Me, I'm a pessimist usually. But I'm also athiest, which means I hold no faith in religion, or in the idea that one needs religion to make life somehow make more sense. Life doesn't make sense. Life is cruel, shitty, happy, great, sad, and everything it can be. Death comes after life. Funerals are for the living. And spiritualism means something else than faith in organized religion

Hey. You just summed up most of my worldview.

If it's an outlook, then I guess I'm a goth. Though I still feel guilty because I don't put more effort into how I dress. And let's not get into what sort of music I listen to... =]

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

I will commence by pointing out that I started listening to goth music at 14, and am now 37. I DJ at goth clubs and events. I still don't consider myself an authority on goth; for that you need Mick Mercer(who defines the music) or google for Pete Scathe, whose site explains very eloquently WIG (What is Goth).

The WIG discussion is banned on most goth forums as it usually causes a massive flame war! I will try to explain my thoughts to you as generally as possible.

Basically, goth has been around about 25-30 years. Anthropologically speaking, we are a styletribe. This means that we are a group of people (tribe) who recognise one another by specific cues in costume (style). Neither part of this is more important than the other.

Musically speaking, the preference lies in dark music and lyrics, with a bent towards heavy basslines. Hence that Amy Lee and Evanescence are not goths, however Amy herself has a gothic image.

There is no ONE SET of clothing or hairstyles or footwear which make you a goth, once again, google for 'goth stereotypes' and you will see that we are quite varied, however a degree of creativity in dress and a penchant for dark, jewel colours is usual. Fondness for literature of the fantastic and weird is also a common current.

I also add another rule. If you do not go out to clubs/ gigs/ gatherings, I don't consider you a goth. This is because I believe you have to actively take part in the local scene, however nasty/ bitchy/ small/ whatever it is, otherwise it dies, leaving you nowhere to go. It's all very well saying you will go to big events or stuff in the next county, but what if people there do the same? Eventually the same apathy will kill all of the scene. /preaching.

I wouldn't say that goths are all pessimists, but we do attract a lot of quite cynical, worldly people. It's quite hard to be a positive cynic! I would also say that most of us see the absurdity and darkness in the world around us, and embrace it. There is also the notion that if we closed our eyes to the strangeness, we could step sidelong into the mainstream. I think you have to be aware of how absurb you look to people, you just have to not care about what they think of you. Although my neighbours are now so used to myself and my partner (Ghost) that they don't even notice the extreme and peculiar outfits we wear to go out!

I am pretty stereotypical of the Neo-Victorian goths, I like Victoriana, corsets, vampire novels (duh), Victorian ghost and horror stories, film noir, black & white movies, hardboiled detective novels, pre-Raphaelite paintings, graveyards and churches, and I have geeky side interests, like SF and occasionally comics.

For what it's worth, I don't consider LKH a goth. She doesn't dress the part (and believe me, size does NOT matter, you can still dress goth if you are larger!), she doesn't have any level of self-awareness, and most importantly of all, the music she listens to is NOT goth music. Can you see her two-stepping to the SoM? Thought not.

Some notes: People calling you a goth doesn't make you a goth. Generally you get called a goth by members of the public with no actual clue what goes on in the scene. Denying you're a goth when you clearly are a goth makes you look silly, not cool.

Some sites:
http://www.topmum.co.uk (Whitby Goth Weekend)
http://www.netgoth.org.uk (OK, not everyone on there is a goth, but it's a good site to have a look around and to use as a resource)
http://www.twfmagazine.com (the magazine for which I write )
http://www.thecharnelhouse.com (the club at which I DJ and help run)
http://www.foreverinblack.com (SPAM! My clothing site ;) )

[slayra.livejournal.com]

I never thought Amy Lee was a goth, really. I also think she doesn't aim for Goth-ness, at least not in the way LKH does.

Many people think that your outfit makes you whatever you are, LKH certainly is like that... she dresses in black and says she's a goth and then she's one? Then would I be a hippie or something, because I used to wear colored skirts and weird clothes with moons and suns and all that, and everyone in the subway stared at me? I think not. What LKH doesn't understand is that it takes more than an outfit to label you. I honestly think she's no Goth and that she's doing it all for marketing. It's clear as water, really. ^___^

[phyrra.livejournal.com]

I absolutely love your post and it's nice to see someone include the anthropological perspective.

[phyrra.livejournal.com]

I consider Goth to be more than just dressing in black. It's definitely got it's own music and outlook on life. My favorite musician Voltaire wrote a book on goth, called What is Goth? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Goth-Voltaire/dp/1578633222/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3751760-6405234?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181134495&sr=8-1). It's really cute and short to read.

I wouldn't consider Amy Lee goth, really, but the one time I saw Evanescence in concert I could swear she was ripping off Switchblade Symphony with some of the stuff she was doing on stage.

For me there are all different types of goth. I fall into the category of not taking it too seriously, enjoying some of the music and liking dressing up. My husband has been in the goth scene for probably close to 2 decades, and even helped orchestrate Convergences 1 and 3. He's much more goth than me :P

[gothgoddessrhia.livejournal.com]

I love Voltaire!!! I need to dig up my picture with him.

And its good to see a good discussion about the goth subculture.

Also, I don't think LKH would know goth if it bit her on the arse.

[fangedsekhmet.livejournal.com]

On the subject of Goths, though possibly a little sidestepping- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Dny-s27Dk

[rantingmule.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD THAT IS BEATIFUL. I laughed so hard I nearly lost some of my energy drink via my nasal passages. XD

[x-trickster-x.livejournal.com]

Firstly, I wouldn't really call myself a goth. I'm into the whole visual-kei/j-rock and punk scene which is a little different. I kind of fit in with the goth description in that I like Poe and Victorian gothic horror and so on. But over all I wouldn't say I am.

Being a teenager though I see a lot of wannabes at school. Mostly I see whiny teenagers who think that liking Evanescence and MCR and wearing eye make-up makes them a goth. If you were to ask about goth literature they'd say "OMG THAT GUY WHO DID THE RAVEN! QUOTH THE RAVEN NEVERMORE, LOL!".

But in relation to LKH, I agree with whoever it was that said that she's keeping an image to sell the books. For some reason she seems to think only goths can write vampire novels...

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

For some reason she seems to think only goths can write vampire novels...

Maybe someone could point me at one, because so far nearly every vampire novel I have read which features goths is totally clueless about goths, and the goth scene, to the point of me throwing books across the room!

[cassildra.livejournal.com]

I'm 22, and have been listening to goth/industrial for years (close to a decade. Dear Lord.). I'm also obsessed with Gothic literature, "dark" art, and Victorian/Elizabethan styles of clothing. (I also play the darker side of RPGs--steampunk, cyberpunk, and White Wolf's World of Darkness. I don't know what that means, but okay!)

But honestly? I don't label myself. If someone feels the need to "label" you, you're obviously just too good for them. ;D

[tehuti.livejournal.com]

I am a fairly regular attendee at our local goth club, and have been since college (assuming the area I lived in could support such a club, which wasn't always the case), I enjoy goth/electronica/industrial music, dress in black an awful lot of the time, and have many of the stereotypical "goth" interests, but I do not label myself as a goth, because that is only a very small part of who I am.

I wonder if LKH even knows where the goth clubs in St. Louis ARE. And I highly doubt this apparent homebody would ever go to them.

[cassildra.livejournal.com]

Of course not! There are LOUD THINGS PUMPING MUSIC. And ELECTRONIC LIGHTS. And some clubs even have *gasp* SMOKE MACHINES.

...and the occasional playing of Terrorfakt would probably kill her.

.....I think we should send her a Terrorfakt CD.

...'cause they KNOW THAT I CAN ROCK. (/random)

[rantingmule.livejournal.com]

...my parents, back when I had two of 'em, used to ask me all the time: "are you a GOTH???" This 'cause I wore, in High School, JEANS AND T-SHIRTS, with BOOOOOTS. e.e

They ask me often these days if I'm a goth 'cause I cut my hair strangely, like dying it, and wear a dog collar as often as I can (if it's inappropriate attire, a choke chain works too) and because my wallet is on a chain.

Too many people assume "gothic" means "the way you look." :P It's more'n that, it's a subculture in and of itself. I'm not a goth...I don't go to the clubs, generally can't stand the music. I know a few goths...they're all very nice, well-adjusted, intelligent people.

LKH is so very not goth in my oppinion. She THINKS she is...she WANTS to be...because she thinks it's "COOOOOL." She wants to be the Queen of Darkity Dark stuff that is omgDARK. Thus, she's TOTALLY missed the goddamn point.

The problem with LKH is that she buys into the stereotype. To her, Darkity Darkness of mah SOOOUUUUL and black clothes makes her OMG TEH GAWTH. Like how having a female main character (no matter how emotionally dependent and whoreishly vile) makes her OMG TEH FEMUNIST and LIBREAL and stuff. How she thinks BDSM is all about abused submissives getting bitchslapped around by cold and unfeeling sadistic fucksticks. S'all the goddamn STEREOTYPE...but most of it isn't real.

She's deluded herself into thinking it IS. And since she does have this vast following of moronic sheep-like twatwaffle fangirls hanging on her every (oft misspelled) word, THEY think that the stereotype is true, too. And then THEY pass on the misinformation to others, spewing their tripe as if it were gospel truth.

So then John "Vanilla" Doe thinks it's all true too, 'cause he has it on Good Authority.

This is one of the MYRIAD of reasons I almost want to shove a steel-toed boot-encrusted foot right up LKH's fat ass...I say almost because I'm not sure I'd ever get my boot (or my FOOT!!!) back again.

[wonderbink.livejournal.com]

I used to hang on the fringes of the goth scene in Atlanta, but never really considered myself a true 'goth'. I dig the music, I think the fashions are pretty, I like playing dress-up now and again, but I can't buy completely into the whole thing. I'm too much in love with the sun.

My Duran Duran fetish has pretty much killed my chances of ever being cool anyway, so I live with it.

LKH strikes me as someone who is more fascinated by the shiny outer trappings of gothiness rather than the inner worldview that shapes it. She comes close, sometimes, usually in the same moments she comes precariously close to having an interesting story.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

I've a friend who's goth. And I consistently forget that she is. Mostly because I'm focused on -her- as herself, secondly because there's an ocean between us and thirdly because I just forget to label the trappings of her life.

But I love hearing her talk on her lj about being outed by the college students at the library she works at. How she might over hear them talking under their breath or see in a survey something like 'The librarian is so Goth! She's perky and helpful but GOTH! It's cool!'

Apparently even wearing as professional a set of clothes as possible - the little accents she puts on so she can feel like herself at work peek through.

Oh and I think of her as being Goth in terms of the music (her husband's in a goth band) and her club scene and her friends (who're often quite urban tribal, down to earth, cynical) types.

I think I brushed Goth for a brief flicker of time in my teens. I was dealing with serious depression. And I drifted towards things that admitted that life was fucked up, cruel and full of pain. I'd have called myself grunge.

I certainly don't see LKH as Goth. I see her more as a wanna-blessed-be-dominatrix. She's doing an odd combination of 'I'm goddess orientated and I want the men to lick my boots!'

Though if her concept of bdsm really is reflected in her books - I want to know if she's ever bothered to even pick up a health clinic pamphlet about BDSM. (Part of my wtf over Nathaniel is my belief that a good dom would have supported him in figuring himself out - quite possibly in therapy - so there wouldn't be any misguided guilt with his pain.)

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

In my final year at University, I took on the worst job at my life. I worked on the tills at a local supermarket. You couldn't wear nail polish, or make-up, or jewellery beyond an engagement or wedding ring. You had to wear a horrible shapeless smock dress, and light-coloured tights. They frowned on anything weird done with your hair. (I have quite long pre-Raphaelite hair, so I don't really do the dye-it-black thing). I was on the till one day when a very tall, very thin Canadian guy, dressed entirely in black, complete with all the trappings, chose to come to my till.

The conversation went thusly:
"So, um," reads my badge "Pandaemonaeum*, where are all the goth clubs in this city?"
"How the hell did you know?" I asked
"Your engagement ring."
"What?"
"Look, it's a black sapphire. I knew".

The moral of this story, and your friend's story, is that

a) gothdar is a wonderful thing
and
b) Goth is an inescapable part of you, and lots of stuff gives it away.