Religion in LKH books

[ellenel13.livejournal.com]

Something thatquizzicalsphinx said in the previous post made me think about LKH and her portrayal of religion in general. I apologized if this discussion is outdated; I haven't read any of the later books so I don't know if any of what I'm about to say has changed since Cerulean Sins.

I remember that in the very first Anita book, LKH only really mentioned two churches. Anita was walking into The Church of Eternal Life and then she said that she used to be a Catholic but was excommunicated for being a necromancer. So she converted to Protestant? Or continued to practice Christianity despite the excommunication? I don't remember. It was years ago. Then when she walked out of the Church, Anita noted that it scared her that the Church of Eternal Life was full of followers and that she hadn't seen a Christian church full in a very long time. It was moments like that that made the series truly eeire back then, if not really scary.

Anyway, I bring this up because the next time I remember Anita discussing religion was in Cerulean Sins. She was raising a zombie and cut herself open instead of a chicken and then proceeded to whine because the Wiccan group whe was a part of demanded that they did not allow for a living creature to be killed for magic or whatever. Here, instead of world building and letting the reader decide for themselves, LKH tried to make it look like religion had abandoned Anita and just used it as another example of how her avatar is emo and isolated. Or it's possible that I was just sick of her character by then and everything she said I took the wrong way.

The point is that I feel LKH uses religion to make her character seem more sympathetic. It worked at first because I could feel bad if a person was denied being  a part of a faith she followed. Later in the books it just feels like another trick to make Anita seem brave and darkitty dark dark. I can tell whether LKH writing just got worse or if the character derailment is what ruined every aspect of Anita's character I used to like and sympathized with. And I never liked Anita that much, even in the beginning.

On the other hand, why do crosses and other stuff only work when the user has faith? In that case, why do the faithful even need a cross or holy water in the first place? Can the faithful just mentally flash their faith at the vampires? If it's the objects that have the power, do symbols from other religions work against the vampires? Could a faithful voodoo preist chase off a vampire with a blessed chicken leg? All of these are questions that LKH never bothered with. It's a shame because her books would have been more interesting if she had explored these things.
 

Comments

[mystickiwi.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, why do crosses and other stuff only work when the user has faith?
While I can't answer this for you, have you noticed that in vampire novels things that are considered "vampire cannon" (holy water, crosses, thresholds, mirrors, etc.) are never really explained? When authors add or take away things that effect vampires there is usually at least minimal explanation, but not so much for the typical things they choose to keep.

[ellenel13.livejournal.com]

I've never read another vampire story where the crosses only worked with faith. I read Bram Stoker's Dracula for my freshman year of high school and that was almost six years ago and I can't remember off the top of my head if it worked like that book. I haven't read many other vampire novels either.

[rin-x-x.livejournal.com]

VtM vampires, as far as I know, arn't affected by holy objects. However, Hunters can use said objects and empower them via their Faith. Also the higher the Faith a Hunter has (also note this IS a roleplaying game, not just fill-up-the-stats), the more powerful they are against supernatural creatures. So a Hunter on religious holy mission is enough to make every vampire either run or hide.

Its the only series I know of that explains it to me, that makes sense. Most books either use it and stay "old school" and don't explain, or just ditch it entirely and mock it.

[slayra.livejournal.com]

To make it work you'd have to think of faith as an inner power. The power of believing. For example if you're a true Christian beliver and you wear a cross it's actually the faith/your fervent belief that repels the vampire, not the cross. The cross is like... erm... electrical cables. I think it would also work if you were wiccan and wore an amulet (do Wiccans wear amulets??); your faith in the Goddess would protect you, etc, etc. That's how I see it anyway. It's the only way it makes sense. O__O

[her-schism.livejournal.com]

perhaps the holy item is a spiritual focus? a focus item which amplifies and directs power. thats how i've always interpreted it.

[shalanar.livejournal.com]

She became...episcopalian.

And I seem to remember, somewhere in the books, something being mentioned about whether holy objects had to have belief to work. I seem to remember that they did (there was some reference to a Jewish person using a Star of David, the way a Christian would use a cross)...

Or maybe I'm imagining that LKHs writing used to be better than it is now.

[ever-obsessed.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember that they did (there was some reference to a Jewish person using a Star of David, the way a Christian would use a cross)...

I remember something like that, too, so it's not just you.

[lilacwire.livejournal.com]

You are correct. She did use that reference. :)

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

Though she said the Star of David was a historic symbol of the race, not the religion. They used little books of the Torah, I believe, because they worked where the Star of David did not.

[lilacwire.livejournal.com]

I think the outward sign of inward faith is why something like a cross is needed. It becomes a representation and symbol of that faith, kind of like a weapon. At least, that's what I get from the various use of religious artifacts in vampire lore.

[easol.livejournal.com]

Or perhaps a focus of that inward faith?

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

If it's the objects that have the power, do symbols from other religions work against the vampires?

That reminds me of Carpe Jugulum, where the (vampire) father of the family trains his children to resist religious symbols from dozens of religions.

Carpe Jugulum

[mardelwanda.livejournal.com]

A Terry Pratchett fan? He is my all-time favorite author. I love his variety of books - even though most of his books are in the "disc world" he writes satire on everything from MacBeth, (or was it Hamlet?), to vampires to fairies (Lords and Ladies) to religions (Small Gods). I think he's a genius. Unfortunately he has been diagnosed with Alzheimers, though he's still writing and not letting it get to him yet. I have more respect for him then any other writer. (not too gushy was that?)

[daphne-gateau.livejournal.com]

She did mention other religions having other symbols. Any faith would work as long as you has a symbol of it.

It would make sense to me that a blessed, sacred holy item would work against vampires. It would be like an amulet or some magical charm that repelled the undead powered by faith, I guess. What I never understood was the idea of making an impromtu cross out of wood or your fingers to repel a vampire.

[sandit.livejournal.com]

I find it confusing why any holy object of any faith at all would work. To me, that basically says that even the holy relics or objects of a religion that had no specific objections to vampires or the occult--or even an occult religion for that matter--would still be vested enough in the matter of vampires to want to banish them, kwim?

I think LKH should have stuck with monotheism considering her comfort zone. Seems like one of those parts of the books where she overreached without considering how ethno/religio centric she is.

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

I remember reading a quote about witchcraft that said "Belief or disbelief can alter the nature of magic." The quote came from a short story in which a teenage witch was confronted by her many-greats-grandmother, who was the original Black Forest witch from the Brothers Grimm stories and had massive amounts of power. The granddaughter battled her grandmother with nothing more than the willpower and belief in her own powers, and disbelief in the grandmother's ability, saying that she was nothing more than a "fairy tale witch" and a "Disney witch."

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

Jim Butcher delves into this in his Dresden Files series.

Harry Dresden...while not a follower of any one religion has his faith in the pentacle, which to him represents the five elements held together by willpower, he can channel his faith though it to fend off vampires. He cannot do the same with the cross since he does not have the faith in what the cross represents. While his faith is strong there are others that have him beat...

Harry's Friend, Michael Carpenter, who is a Knight of the Cross and bears a sword that has one of the three cruxifixion nails in it, has faith in the Almighty can can be measured in metric tons. Where Harry's faith sometimes fails him or is overwhelmed...Micheal's has never failed. His faith is so strong he doesn't need a cross at times, a vampire tried to get snuggly with him...and the end result was something like....FWOOSH! Not kidding.

[easol.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it was cool when a vampire tried to touch Michael and got burned. :D And Harry lobs off a snappy comeback, "Hands off the hammer of God" or something like that. Although Michael may not be quite the right example to use since he's supposed to have been specially selected...

(Although Harry has used holy water. This may be explainable because he does seem to believe in God, angels, etc -- he just doesn't really feel comfortable for assorted psychological reasons)

[notadoor.livejournal.com]

"On the other hand, why do crosses and other stuff only work when the user has faith? In that case, why do the faithful even need a cross or holy water in the first place? Can the faithful just mentally flash their faith at the vampires?"

I remember reading a picture book version of Swan Lake when I was a kid where the prince makes a cross with his two fingers, and because his faith is strong it protects him.

I don't think it's a specifically LKH or modern idea; I think it originated in a society where non-Christians = non-people, and thus the question of other religions' symbols never arose.

[othellia.livejournal.com]

I remember reading a picture book version of Swan Lake when I was a kid where the prince makes a cross with his two fingers, and because his faith is strong it protects him.

Oh yes. Fingers. Eddie Izzard questions/expands upon it best at around 1:35 (I remember reading a picture book version of Swan Lake when I was a kid where the prince makes a cross with his two fingers, and because his faith is strong it protects him.).

[easol.livejournal.com]

I think Anita IDed as Episcopalian after she left Catholicism; I dunno what Richard is. And yeah, despite trying to make Wiccans look like the awesome people and the Christians as the evil intolerants who don't want Teh Darkity-Dark Goddezz to have sex, she tries to craft them into whiny babies who just don't understaaaaaaaaaand her and are MEAAAAAAAAAN to her...

And yeah, I think since the very beginning LKH has used religion to try to make her heroine seem all emo and alone, much the way she used family strife and personal loss. I think she also felt it was a way to portray her heroine as being incredibly edgy -- I'm just too awesome and powerful and dark for this religion! Fear me!

(Although her religious beliefs have always been of the fair-weather variety -- if one of them isn't 100% happy with what she does, she moves on. A faithful Christian wouldn't have worshiped Odin, after all. And Wicca hasn't been mentioned since she was all "Oh well, they don't understaaaaaaaand me and I need to be able to draw my gun!")

As for "only work when the user has faith" thing, I've only seen that in SOME places. A Dr. Who episode, a Dresden Files short story (although it somewhat contradicts a prior book line where Father Forthill apparently blessed a "five gallon drum" of water for Harry), but not everywhere. I dunno how it's supposed to work.
(Come to think of it, I wonder if that's why the breadstick cross didn't work for Mulder)

[wonderbink.livejournal.com]

Wasn't there one book where she made an area a sacred space by calling the munin or something and all the vamps in the area got nuked? I think she waited a moment to make sure that 'her' vamps were out of range before she did so. Or am I misremembering?

I was also a bit baffled that the Catholic Church's prohibition against necromancers seemed to be a relatively recent event. It's not like necromancers were an unprecedented new development, like surrogate motherhood or birth control pills, where the Church would have to suddenly figure out what its stance was. Surely if vampires and necromancers had always been, the Vatican would have come to some kind of conclusion about them centuries ago.

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

This is very true, especially since the Church has had an official stance on magic and "speaking with the dead" and the like centuries ago as well (I'm pretty sure anyway... I'm not Catholic)... in real life.

[regoddy.livejournal.com]

In one of the last one or two books, Anita has decided to make everyone wear crosses to stay off MOAD or something and one of the...weres? wears a little Buddah pendant instead, since he's not Christian. So, I guess it really is just FAITH and not a particular religion.

Anita was, of course, surprised to find out anyone in her presence wasn't a WASP (WASC in her case, I guess.)

[sarah-k-o-m.livejournal.com]

Off topic, but Eddie Izzard love on your icon!

About religion...

[ukoku.livejournal.com]

The only reason Anita became Wiccan is because LKH did.

I believe the plot (explained in perhaps one paragraph) was that Anita's psychic friend had been warning her of the concept of magical return (the Threefold Law, or maybe they called it something else) and Anita was wondering if all the bad things that happen to her was because of the bad mojo she'd built up over the years. So while she's not

(I feel that I should point out that magical ability in the Anitaverse is genetic, not learned, and that therefore the basic tenant of Wicca, that all people are magical, is not true.)

The whole thing mirrors (perhaps poorly) LKH's experience with religion, which is perhaps why all religion is treated with disdain. I'm assuming: She was Catholic, but feels bitter about their nonacceptance of things she feels are okay, so she turned Episcopalian because they're they most leftarded of Christians. But she'd already become disillusioned with Christianity, so she looked for something more suited to her beliefs and found Wicca.

The disdain never bothered me, because my religious history is similar. Plus, Anita's issue with religion seemed to lie with the fact that people are hypocrites, and that having true faith and trust in God was more important than having religion. I think that's totally valid.

But as you point out, maybe that's not such the case with Anita 2.0. As much as I liked Charmed, I roll my eyes whenever I see Wicca brought up in a fictional setting, because 90% of the time it's the author trying to show how dark and mysterious they are.

Then when she walked out of the Church, Anita noted that it scared her that the Church of Eternal Life was full of followers and that she hadn't seen a Christian church full in a very long time. It was moments like that that made the series truly eeire back then, if not really scary.

Again, I took this as distain for the unfaithful, not specifically related to Christianity. Like, she was saying, "You're so afraid of dying that you choose to become a vampire? You're afraid because you don't have enough faith that your God/dess/whatever loves you and will take care of you when you die."

Important stuff happens involving the CoEL in more recent Books, but I won't spoil you.

Re: About religion...

[easol.livejournal.com]

"magical ability in the Anitaverse is genetic, not learned, and that therefore the basic tenant of Wicca, that all people are magical, is not true."

So we have another thing that should have been adjusted for this alternate history and setting. Another strike.

"Anita's issue with religion seemed to lie with the fact that people are hypocrites"

In that case, I'm surprised she doesn't disdain Wicca. Hypocrites flourish in any religion.

"I took this as distain for the unfaithful, not specifically related to Christianity"

Does the CoEL even believe in God? I thought it was all about the getting turned into a vampire thing. Can't remember...

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Slightly off topic, but what really bugs me with Anita's take on religion is her whining that people just "don't understand" - in particular, that the Papal ban on necromancy was caused by the Vatican's ignorance of the fact that necromancy will force its way out on its own if you don't use it.

But if the Vatican in the Anitaverse is anything like the one in the real world, the people there knows perfectly well how it works. They just don't care. Catholicism has a long list of things that are simply unacceptable under any circumstances - if necromancy is one of them, then the official stance of the Vatican would likely be that a necromancer must simply suffer through it and exercise all her willpower at keeping her abilities in check. If that is difficult or causes her pain, then that is unfortunate, but it doesn't change anything.

As you may notice, I don't like Catholicism much, but it still annoys me how Anita (and LKH) refuses to even consider the fact that other people might not being doing what they do because they're stupid and ignorant. They might in fact be doing it because they have a different set of moral premises than her - or just different priorities.

totally another subject

[flaveur.livejournal.com]

Just for saying that I so completely can't wait when the french-readers are going in the next stage (the first is the, whoua, so cool, so great, so hot and can't wait for the next books).
I want to make a french LKH Lashout. Very much. And for what I see, the next stage is not so far. héhéhé

Will the editor have the .... courage to translate all the serie ? What a wonderfull question, I hope they make it, just for the sake of the discussions.


oh, and I'm pretty sur the books don't lost anything during the translation, the opposite, in fact, maybe. I have to reread to be sure.

I keep in touch (even if you don't want it)

[chubling.livejournal.com]

Actually, from what I remember, if someone had enough faith, any holy object worked. But, it's been ages sense I read VtM.

[ladymuttly1.livejournal.com]

Didn't Anita fight a demon by reciting scripture?

[magdalen77.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think she did in Blue Moon.

[regoddy.livejournal.com]

Just thought I'd add that I was listening to her podcasts today (something reminded me of their existence and I figured I'd see if she had updated them), and in the 05-11-2008 one someone actually asks the question about other faiths. It's around 9:15 in if you want to check it out, and she has some confusing round about logic about faith in science at the end.

More not in the subject

[flaveur.livejournal.com]

Ouach, I think I made a FIND. A book that is wrote WORSe than AB and MG !!!

See there, the style of the first chapter is exactly like the description !!!
http://www.mobipocket.com/EN/eBooks/eBookDetails.asp?BookID=141975

Ouch
ouch
ouch
And worse, you don't have to read the books, you have all in the resume.... it's pretty self_sufficient.