Passible sexism, what?

[bookpire.livejournal.com]

Hi I'm a long time watcher of this group, though I’ve never posted before. I’ve been reading posts on here for about six months or so, and I thought I’d be less creepy stalker like and actually say hi. ^^ Actually I have a rather big problem that I need some input on from fellow urban fantasy fans, and I don’t think there’s any better place to get opinions from a feminist view point then here.  

See I’ve been reading the ever loved Dresden Files series after my friends called it ‘the Tolkien of Urban fantasy’ and seeing it praised all over the net. I was pretty damn hyped up to get my teeth into them after a long and painfully dull semester of work, picked up Storm Front on the way home and starting things while riding the late evening train.

I can quite honestly say that Storm Front is probably the worst none romantically lead urban fantasy story I have ever read. Dear god the level of disappointment I felt, at least the Anita Blake series started good and went down one bar one book at a time. Heck I can honestly say Guilty Pleasures towers over Storm Front in terms of almost everything.  I even skips the final confrontation with the villain, something I have never done even while reading books like Anita Blake. But it’s the first in a series right, And Jim Butchers just testing the waters? I did some research, went to sources I trust including someone who had a list of ‘what to read instead of Anita Blake’ and found that the Dresden Files were at the top. She said the series start to become epic amazing in the third and fourth books.

So I read the second book, it was okay. ALOT better then the first I have to say. (lol rhythms) I liked JB’s ideas about werewolves and the different types, so it gave me hope for the third book; maybe it would really start becoming epic.

Let me just say, I am a somewhat feminist like in my tastes, and I imagine some people reading this now and have finished some of the DF novels  are either laughing or raising a brow at what I’m getting at.

After reading three books in this series, I can honestly say I hate Harry Dresden with a passion. Not as much as our good old crazy ass Ms Blake, but dammit to heck I hate this guy so much I couldn’t even understand WHY until I had stopped spazing on the floor. So here’s what I’m asking,

Am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face so hard the sexist, chronic nice guy bullcrap flies right out of him? Seriously Harry Dresden is loved by so many people, yet he’s probably one of the more frustrating protagonists I have ever read. In the first three books his problems all relate to him trusting, protecting or feeling sorry for women at some point in the story, since you know their his greatest weakness and all that. All the females in this universe are apparently so attractive JB has to describe their appearance and compare them to ‘cheerleaders’ or call them ‘all leg’ and what not. Harry justifies his sexism by calling it chivalry, and the story obviously agrees with him, and the only ‘badass’ female character so far seems to be a woman who needs rescuing from her own stupidity, though in truth I read it as Harry not giving Murphy enough information to work on, hence giving her a REASON not to trust his lying ass.

Also a little piece of interesting trivia, in every book I’ve read a woman has been either naked at some point or wearing something revealing and sexy. And let’s just forget about the Harry naked in Storm Front scene where Susan tries to sex him up under the influence of a magical spiked drink.  

When this happened again in the second book I thought ‘oh hey well that’s it, Harry is going to learn not to hold back information from women just because his Y chromosome feels a need to protect them. Then I read the third book, and I seriously wanted to outright murder Harry for not laying a ghost to rest by force because AGAIN it was a woman and he felt sorry for her.

Yeh I know people are going to say ‘well yes that’s Harry’s character flaw’ and good characters have them. But the fact that his weakness resolves around beautiful women in distress feels like such Nice Guy Syndrome. I’m glad Susan is gone, considering she had ‘boring love interest’ printed against her forehead right from the start.

I’m beside myself with confusion because people I respect and know have good taste in books love this series. Am I just over reacting? Or does anyone else feel this way? Should I pick up the fourth book? I’m kinda scared the main focus will be Harry angsting over losing Susan. X-x so I just don’t know.    

Comments

[ex-naomi-ja.livejournal.com]

I didn't have the same problems with Harry as you, but I didn't enjoy the series especially and gave up after book four (which I felt was the weakest of the four I read). I just didn't click with Harry's world, I guess.

[volatilesublime.livejournal.com]

I feel that your post deserve a response much more clever than I am feeling at the moment. I may come back after I've had some time to think and make another reply about the highly-sexualized (which my spell-check is telling me is a typo, wtf) view of women in the Dresden Files.

My short response is that when I first read Storm Front, I was rather underwhelmed; but I liked the magical rules of the world and the way they were presented well enough to pick up the second. The fourth book, Summer Knight, is one of my favorites of the series simply because that seems to be about where Butcher really started to get his feet under him. Plus, it deals with the Fae as both allies and antagonists, and it returns to their mythic origins as mad godlings/ nigh-omnipotent troublemakers with their own bizarre sort of laws and strictures.

Fun fact, in case you haven't heard this (and if you already have, I apologize): The Dresden Files were pretty much directly inspired by the Anita Blake series. Butcher was more focused on writing high fantasy at the time, but he really loved the urban/ noir feeling of the world in the AB series. One of his college professors suggested to him that he write something in that vein, and what came out was pretty much Storm Front.

[tooimpurenangel.livejournal.com]

Can't stand Harry. Love the series. Is that weird?

Ugh, the part in SF where he talks about annoying Murphy with his ~chivalry~ and doing it anyway? WHARGARBL!
It actually gets worse. Proven Guilty is just really gross and makes me feel dirty, but I think the world-building is brilliant.

[bookpire.livejournal.com]

Yeh I heard he was inspired by AB, didn't know his proffessor suggested it tho. Huh the more you know. 8 )

I've heard the fae in the Dresden world are great, but it's kinda hard to love creative world building when the actions of the main character keep taking you out of the world. I guess it's just I problem I have, I wish it didn't ruin everything else for me. 8c

[bookpire.livejournal.com]

Yeh this is pretty much how I feel about it, the urban world that is the Dresden universe is creative and beats the pants of the AB series. But just like Anita, I just wish we weren't seeing it through Harrys POV. 8/

...I'm scared to ask, but isn't Proven Guilty about Molly? The underage wizard girl? Oh God do I wanna know?

[tooimpurenangel.livejournal.com]

YES. LUUUUUUURTGH

[solarom.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I think you're reacting, and I really think you're taking "feminism" to a lever where it really doesn't need to get. Basically, turning in into a prejudice against men. If a guy says in his head that a woman is "all leg" it's not sexist. It's not very elegant, but not sexist either, or at least not more sexist than any one of us going inside our heads "Look at that ass!" when a guy passes us on the street. Let's face it, in a moment like that we're not at all concerned with what kind of a person he is or what really moves his soul. It's a sexual reaction, and given that DF is written by a man, who obviously likes women is it really that much of a surprise that a lot of the books revolve around Harry's relationship|partnership with various ladies? Sure, it gets corny sometimes, but I think that's merely a mark of an inexperienced writer (not limiting yourself, getting too carried away and emotional with your writing, trying to sound cool and fully and naturally failing) and it does get better as the books go on.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

It does take a while, but Harry's chauvinism 1) bites him in the ass 2) people call him on it. I think it's a rather deliberate character flaw.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

When I started reading the books, I was so happy for a writing style I found genuinely funny and world-building I adored that I was willing to gloss over the sketchiness towards women (the Molly fetishism, whoo boy). Probably the main reason I can manage that is because Harry almost never has a relationship in the course of thirteen books, so at least his bullshit is largely irrelevant to the actual story and action. (I'd even go so far as to say that Harry's sexism is supposed to be an embarrassing weakness stemming from his limited interaction with women. You know how people say a chauvinist guy must spend a lot of time in his basement alone? That's literally Harry's entire life. I'm trying to remember if any characters find his behavior quaint, but mostly I just recall people mocking him for it). And when you take Harry's objectifying out of the equation, the female characters are all badass. Murphy, Molly, Luccio, the Leanansidhe, Ivy, Sigrun, Lara Raith, Justine, all the queens of the faerie courts...very cool.

Also I really appreciate Butcher's love for kicking Harry in the face. So when Harry annoys me, I take comfort in the fact that not a single book can go by without him being made a complete fool of or suffering untold injuries (without any rapid healing magic), which is really rare in this genre. But you're not wrong about the skeeviness, at all. I can get past it (barely), but I completely understand people who can't.

[threeringedmoon.livejournal.com]

I tried the first few and gave up. I didn't like Harry, and the world building and reasonably literate writing didn't make up for it. My husband has bought them all, and every once in a while I look at the series on shelves, but the urge goes away quickly.

[loree.livejournal.com]

That's what I get from it too. Once the series gets its legs he knows it's a problem, does it anyway, and repeatedly gets his ass kicked for it.

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

But if there are *only* hot women in the narrative or Harry only helps hot women, then it's getting icky and sexist. It's also icky if every girl Harry meets needs his help/protection/dick/whatever. And Nice Guy Syndrome (if that's what Harry's the embodiment of) is out and out gross.

I admit, I haven't read any of the Dresden Files but from the sounds of it, the writer of the above post might just hate the series and/or character. That's not misandry, just a difference in taste. (And seriously, where do you get that the writer of the post hates men? She hates Harry Desden which is a totally acceptable response to a literary character - unless your dislike of Anita somehow marks you as a misogynist.)

Just my two cents.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

I used to be a big Harry Dresden fan, but I eventually soured on the series. I felt that Harry just turned into too much of a self-righteous douchebag in the end, all while the entire universe was lining up to tell him how wonderful and saintly he was.

And, having re-read the first book since then... yeah, I hear you. There is something deeply annoying about Harry's attitude towards women. That scene early on when he races Murphy to the door so he can open it for her, even though he knows she hates it when he does that, kind of says all you need to know. Harry, you douche - chivalry is an iffy enough concept as it is, seeing as it rests on the view of women as fragile flowers who need to be treated gently so as not to wither and die. But if you have to be chivalrous, you need to understand that it's about being kind and thoughtful and even servile - if you are forcing it upon a woman, then it's not chivalry anymore, it's just a way of putting her down to make yourself feel like a big man!

[solarom.livejournal.com]

I'm all for difference in taste, and I never said the original poster hated men, I said "prejudiced". 90% of men were attractive in the early (or rather all of) Anita books, yet it never troubled the largely female audience of LKH, including (apparently) the original poster up until the books suffered a dramatic drop in quality.

Can you explain what's a Nice Guy Syndrome? For you, I mean. The name, I thought at first, was fairly self-explanatory, but since it's considered "out and out gross" maybe I just don't get it right.

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

Through a series of amusing events, I've actually got the first four books but I've never read them. I've got friends who say that Harry is wonderful and lovable and friends who say he makes them vomit in their mouths and try harder at kick boxing class. (Also, there are plot holes. The largest of which seems to involve no one noticing a dinosaur stomping around downtown Chicago during rush hour. Why there's a dinosaur and what it's doing in downtown Chicago, I've no idea.) What I've extrapolated from those rants is that Harry Dresden is something you either love or hate.

Personally, I don't feel that I need to put up with some imaginary character's sexist bullshit to get a good story to read. There are lots of books out there that won't make me breathe fire or want to stomp imaginary people into paste. If Harry Dresden makes you vomit in your mouth, find something better. He's popular but he's not all that and a bag of chips.

[graylor.livejournal.com]

I got sick of the series a couple books in, mainly because the only thing holding my interest was the magical system. If Harry's sexism is supposed to be a flaw, it's a flaw like Bella Swan's clumsiness in Twilight. There's an element where, at least to me, it felt like the authors were saying, 'Oh, it's a *flaw*, tee-hee, isn't it *cute*.' I wouldn't want to hang out with a guy with Harry's attitude in real life so I choose not to hang-out with him in his books.

[ellenel13.livejournal.com]

Nice Guy Syndrome is used to describe a subset of men who initially act courteous and supportive towards women they are attracted, but then get angry, aggressive, and abusive when the women do not have sex with them.

Essentially, it describes men who believe that they should be rewarded with sex when they are "nice" to a women. You'll often hear them complaining that women only one douchebag men instead of "nice" guys like them.

[ellenel13.livejournal.com]

*want

I can't type today

[bookpire.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing against men, and I didn't go into detail about why I dislike Anita Blake since it wasn't the subject of the post. I'm sorry if my opinion came off unbalanced. In fact I can like sexist characters just fine, it's the fact that Harry is supposed to be a likeable but flawed human being, yet I can't bring myself to feel the like part. I think the moment he went into a murdered womans bedroom he met, maybe once or twice and actually cried himself to sleep on the carpet was what made me class him as a sufferer of Also Nice Guy Syndrome. It's pretty much a character made out to be nice and the better man in a story, though some would argue against it and say his actions can be rather pleasant and stalker like. (not everything under the meaning relates to Harry, but some of it does)

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

this will tell you everything better than me.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. I always got the impression that Butcher found Harry's (sigh) "old-fashionedness" more endearing than anything, and expected the reader to feel the same.

(and oh, this is such a pet peeve of mine - people who claim to be "old-fashioned" and "sentimental" when they are really just being reactionary. >_<)

[bookpire.livejournal.com]

hmmm, maybe the first books didn't show the female characters in the best light. I have heard Murphy gets better. I understand that Harry has this flaw, but there are hints that not all of it is just the character. I have to ask, from book four onwards, are there still women dressing in revealing clothes or becoming naked for no reason? Also do problems start to stream from things happening that didn't involve Harry doing something stupid or holding back infomation? Because that would be a plus.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Murphy gets worse. Harry is even more of a jackass to her in the later books.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

THIS! Harry's sexism is never a flaw-- it's just, haha, good ole Harry, he's so stuck in the past.

No. It's not cute, and it's not funny. As a reader I have more in common with Murphy (as I'm short and arguably "tough" according to others) and I've had a lot of guys get all, hyuk-hyuk-chivalrous at me. It's infuriating that they can't take me seriously as a human being.

I'd want to put my fist in Harry's face, if I had to deal with him. The fact that he's in book form just makes me wish he had a face that I could punch. He's SO obnoxious as a character. And the way Butcher chalks up the criticisms to just being a good old boy and "that's how men are" creeps me out like whoa, especially given the stuff with Molly....

[subtle-shades.livejournal.com]

You said: I really think you're taking "feminism" to a lever where it really doesn't need to get. Basically, turning in into a prejudice against men.

Misandry = the hatred or dislike of men/boys. It's the bookend to misogyny.

As for Nice Guy Syndrome, it's not actually being a nice guy. (I'm all for genuinely nice people.) It's a dog-in-the-manger sort of outlook. Basically, a guy wants to sleep with a woman but rather than asking her out, he angles to become a close friend (so that he can (theoretically) slide into a relationship with her). It basically boils down to being owed sex/love/a relationship for time served as her friend and/or confidante. He thinks that he's a "nice guy" and feels deeply aggrieved that the target of his affections can't see how awesome he is to her (and, possibly, dump her current boyfriend for him). (More often than not, he comes off as friend at best or a low level creeper at worst to the lady in question.)

Sometimes, this sense of being entitled to the girl leads a Nice Guy to passively aggressively undermining the girl's relationships or trying to drive the other men in her life off. Off the top of my head, Leonard from The Big Bang Theory falls into this fairly frequently. (This is not to say that, occasionally, he's not a genuinely nice guy. Sometimes, Leonard is a very nice man. With Leonard, I assume it's because he's socially awkward and inexperienced but will eventually grow out of it.)

The Geek Feminism Wiki page has more on it:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome

A Buffy commentator discusses Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer as being a Nice Guy. (As opposed to a nice guy which is totally different.) Since he openly admits to having been a Nice Guy before he grew up, started treating women as people and got a girlfriend, I assume he knows what he's going on about. Its:
http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-394?mobile

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

By that definition, no, Harry is not a Nice Guy, though he is certainly a bastard in many ways. In fact, he seems to take a great deal of (pompous, self-flattering) pride in how much he does not make any undue sexual advances on women, but instead acts like a man of honour who helps and supports them and protects their precious, precious virtue (protects it, sometimes, from their own willingness to "give it up" too easily. *winces*). Basically, he spends an awful lot of time thinking about how very much he really doesn't think about women as sex objects.

This is also often referred to as being a Nice Guy, so I think that that's what the OP was referring to. To be honest, I think that the term is so overused as to have lost all meaning...