Thoughts on Therian Clans & Positions
Jul. 19th, 2012 03:50 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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lkh_lashoutsWhy do all the therian groups, regardless of type and/or location, seem to run on the same system?
I get why the vampires all have one set-up (MoC, second and third in command, maybe a stalking horse) regardless of where they are, because they all answer to the Vampire Council and it's probably easier for the Council to keep track of who's in charge and does what in all the Kisses (that feels so dumb to type) worldwide, plus they always struck me as the tradition-heavy types. But the therians aren't like that. There is no higher organization that each Pack/Pard/etc. answers to aside from the leader of that group. So how come there doesn't seem to be any variance in the structure of these groups? The books give the impression that every Pack has an Ulfric and Lupa and Skoll and such, every Pard has a Nimir-Raj and Nimir-Ra, and so on. The only therian groups that have been specifically shown to deviate from the "king and queen" set-up are the hyenas and tigers, since they're the matriarchal species.
What I want to know is...why? Why should all the wolf packs be run the same way, let alone almost all the therian groups period? You'd think that, since they don't seem to be all connected in any way like the vampires, there would be some variance. Different structures for different needs depending on their area and what kind of people make up the group, new positions and new ideas on how to run things, etc. A lot of the time it seems to be treated as something innate to them, like they just instinctively MUST have or be these positions, but animals AND humans are both adaptive. Both adjust to their environments. Why should a werebeast of any type be inherently wired to keep doing things the same way no matter their time or location? It would also be a nice contrast to the vampires; it could serve as a sort of metaphor as how, being dead, the vampires are sort of stuck in stasis (if their fashions are any indication) and unchanging in their rituals and culture, while werebeasts are actually living in the world rather than shutting themselves away from it, they're alive and fluid and able to change to survive just like animals do, just like they change shape. Plus a lot of the animals they change into do not lives in groups and/or mate for life, so why is their apparent instinct to do so shown as coming from their beast?
Speaking of how "they just instinctively MUST have or be these positions", the way some of these positions, especially the most important ones, are not earned but simply given really bugs me. If I recall right, Anita didn't do anything to become Nimir-Ra, did she? Her inner leopard just "called" to Micah's who sensed that she was his queen, and that was that. Yet she, whatever LKH might think, is clearly NOT an adequate leader in the slightest, least of all because SHE ISN'T EVEN A WERELEOPARD regardless of if she has one in her inner zoo or not.
And why is the king/queen structure one that requires mateship and/or sex at all between the two leaders? And that they need to be male and female? That seems very counter-productive to me, because it basically eliminates everyone who isn't a straight couple from taking on the roles, even though that has ZIP to do with being a good leader, ruler, and protector. I would think that loads of therian groups would have the sense to say "yeah, no, that doesn't work for us, we want a head cheese based on their competence, not who they're screwing" and set up their own structures from clan to clan depending on what works for them. I understand that it's easier for an author to just say "ok, they all work on this system" but it just doesn't make sense, at least not to me. I also understand that having all these rules and rituals and positions adds a sense of 'different' to them, of belonging to another world, a secret world, and I like that. I really do. These are NOT human beings, and it would be boring if they just had a president and a treasurer and met every Wednesday to pay dues and vote on stuff as if they were a home-owner's committee, and I myself don't have any suggestions for how things should be run differently but hey, I'm not writing this series. That's the author's job. I'd just like something that seems mystical and not-quite-human enough, but also makes enough sense to believe in and see as being actually functional (which a system based all around literally screwing each other for power doesn't seem to be to me).
What about the rest of you, lashers? Does the way LKH have things set up make sense to you? If not, why? For the same reasons as it doesn't to me, or different? What do you like in how she writes these systems, and would keep? What don't you and wouldn't you? Would you like to see systems that are more animal or more human, more normal or more strange? Anything you have to on the subject say is welcome!
(Also, off-topic, but does it strike anyone else as being odd that the position is named Lupa, a Latin word, while all the other Pack positions are taken from Norse? Maybe it's to represent that they don't actually do anything like the others, it's just a term for the Ulfric's girlfriend rather than a position of any actual authority?)
I get why the vampires all have one set-up (MoC, second and third in command, maybe a stalking horse) regardless of where they are, because they all answer to the Vampire Council and it's probably easier for the Council to keep track of who's in charge and does what in all the Kisses (that feels so dumb to type) worldwide, plus they always struck me as the tradition-heavy types. But the therians aren't like that. There is no higher organization that each Pack/Pard/etc. answers to aside from the leader of that group. So how come there doesn't seem to be any variance in the structure of these groups? The books give the impression that every Pack has an Ulfric and Lupa and Skoll and such, every Pard has a Nimir-Raj and Nimir-Ra, and so on. The only therian groups that have been specifically shown to deviate from the "king and queen" set-up are the hyenas and tigers, since they're the matriarchal species.
What I want to know is...why? Why should all the wolf packs be run the same way, let alone almost all the therian groups period? You'd think that, since they don't seem to be all connected in any way like the vampires, there would be some variance. Different structures for different needs depending on their area and what kind of people make up the group, new positions and new ideas on how to run things, etc. A lot of the time it seems to be treated as something innate to them, like they just instinctively MUST have or be these positions, but animals AND humans are both adaptive. Both adjust to their environments. Why should a werebeast of any type be inherently wired to keep doing things the same way no matter their time or location? It would also be a nice contrast to the vampires; it could serve as a sort of metaphor as how, being dead, the vampires are sort of stuck in stasis (if their fashions are any indication) and unchanging in their rituals and culture, while werebeasts are actually living in the world rather than shutting themselves away from it, they're alive and fluid and able to change to survive just like animals do, just like they change shape. Plus a lot of the animals they change into do not lives in groups and/or mate for life, so why is their apparent instinct to do so shown as coming from their beast?
Speaking of how "they just instinctively MUST have or be these positions", the way some of these positions, especially the most important ones, are not earned but simply given really bugs me. If I recall right, Anita didn't do anything to become Nimir-Ra, did she? Her inner leopard just "called" to Micah's who sensed that she was his queen, and that was that. Yet she, whatever LKH might think, is clearly NOT an adequate leader in the slightest, least of all because SHE ISN'T EVEN A WERELEOPARD regardless of if she has one in her inner zoo or not.
And why is the king/queen structure one that requires mateship and/or sex at all between the two leaders? And that they need to be male and female? That seems very counter-productive to me, because it basically eliminates everyone who isn't a straight couple from taking on the roles, even though that has ZIP to do with being a good leader, ruler, and protector. I would think that loads of therian groups would have the sense to say "yeah, no, that doesn't work for us, we want a head cheese based on their competence, not who they're screwing" and set up their own structures from clan to clan depending on what works for them. I understand that it's easier for an author to just say "ok, they all work on this system" but it just doesn't make sense, at least not to me. I also understand that having all these rules and rituals and positions adds a sense of 'different' to them, of belonging to another world, a secret world, and I like that. I really do. These are NOT human beings, and it would be boring if they just had a president and a treasurer and met every Wednesday to pay dues and vote on stuff as if they were a home-owner's committee, and I myself don't have any suggestions for how things should be run differently but hey, I'm not writing this series. That's the author's job. I'd just like something that seems mystical and not-quite-human enough, but also makes enough sense to believe in and see as being actually functional (which a system based all around literally screwing each other for power doesn't seem to be to me).
What about the rest of you, lashers? Does the way LKH have things set up make sense to you? If not, why? For the same reasons as it doesn't to me, or different? What do you like in how she writes these systems, and would keep? What don't you and wouldn't you? Would you like to see systems that are more animal or more human, more normal or more strange? Anything you have to on the subject say is welcome!
(Also, off-topic, but does it strike anyone else as being odd that the position is named Lupa, a Latin word, while all the other Pack positions are taken from Norse? Maybe it's to represent that they don't actually do anything like the others, it's just a term for the Ulfric's girlfriend rather than a position of any actual authority?)
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no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 08:13 pm (UTC)Now that that is covered, the Alpha issue I'm fine with as a manifestation of animal instincts. And I'm fine with her leading even though she's not a wereleopard. The argument can be made that she took better care of the leopards than anyone else did at that point.
As for the sameness of packs, I find it believable only because of the mobility of pack members. There are so many people who join packs from other packs that the culture seems quite mobile, and is likely the same because all those wolves who change out bring cultural habits with them.
The main problem I have is that not all animals are organized in packs or have the same sorts of structures. Cats, for example, are territorial, so the whole Pard thing is just wrong.
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Date: 2012-07-19 08:18 pm (UTC)Hahahahah, really?
There are so many people who join packs from other packs that the culture seems quite mobile, and is likely the same because all those wolves who change out bring cultural habits with them.
That makes sense, I didn't think of that!
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Date: 2012-07-19 08:32 pm (UTC)A limited set of bloodlines, each line has an inate skill or trait unique to that bloodline
Every 'City' has a leader Prince for WoD...Master for LKH...the Master/Prince has make or break power over all other vampires in the teritory, the Prince makes the rules of the city and all other vampires must obey or get gacked.
She pretty much omited the idea of the Sabbat/Carmilla conflict where the former is all "Top of the Food chain/Survival of the Fittest" Type and the latter is more "Civilized" Which is a shame since a batch of vamps violently bucking the system would be some fun conflict.
She included the vampires to have the ability to have sex, and such...which is not possible in V:tM without spending blood points and even then it's implied that the vampire may not derive much pleasure from the act. The only 'true' pleasure they get is via biting and drinking prey.
As for the Werewolves, they are quite Spiritual, they deeply believe that the Vampires are a blight on the planet and will destroy them to defend "Gaia" So her whole 'Animal to call' stuff and having Vamps Dominate the Weres is definatly a diversion from the WoD versons
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Date: 2012-07-20 03:34 am (UTC)The Werewolf stealing... not so much. Werewolves in W:tA are born, not infected with a virus. Although they do deal with spirits (and quite a lot in the RPG), the "munin" are the only spiritual aspects of AB werewolves. There is no clear parallel there. The Werewolf werewolves can "step sideways" into the spirit world and interact with the spirits there. There are also five distinct forms of shifting: homid (human), glabro (slightly bigger, more wolfish human), crinos (the wolf-man), hispo (think prehistoric huge wolf), and lupus (wolf). The AB werewolves only have one alternate form, which is the wolf-man? It's been so long since I read it. At most two alternate forms: wolf-man and wolf.
The Werewolf werewolves fight against the Wyrm, which is the representation of corruption and decay. They fight to protect Gaia (the earth) and the Wyld (the force of creation). ... oh, god, I could explain on that one for days. Suffice it to say, there is NO POINT to the werewolves or were anything in the ABverse: they are just there to be fucked by AB. They have no higher calling, no point to being a werewolf, other than they are infected people.
The Werewolf werewolves DO NOT get along with vampires. Vamps are KOS. Period. They don't get along with OTHER shapeshifters either, which are generally KOS. This includes werebears, werecats (7 or so tribes of cats, including leopards, panthers, tigers, lynxes, pumas, and lions), wererats, and werecoyotes, among others. There are 13 distinct tribes of werewolves, with 5 different auspices, or moon-signs, they were born under. They can be born of human, wolf, or be a sterile offspring of two werewolves.
I could go on about the differences, but I think that should prove it enough... no, thankfully, LKH did not steal werewolves from Werewolf: the Apocalypse.
If she did, I would have to shoot her. :P
no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 03:41 am (UTC)But I did recall the higher calling, the Wyrm (which leads into the Black Spiral) none of which is present at all in AB.
I mean if the Weres have been around as long as AB's world contends...they should have some sort of culture/calling OTHER to be Vampire Flunkies...which is essentally what they are in that verse.
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Date: 2012-07-20 03:49 am (UTC)Course, vampires had a more gradual power curve, and when you started hitting gen 6 or above, then the can of whoop ass came out.
I digress though. If there were other conflict with the shapeshifters, maybe the ABverse could be interesting. As it is, it is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS against vampires. Boring.
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Date: 2012-07-20 12:45 pm (UTC)Which makes me wonder what would happen if Anita lost her Ardeur powers? And all these critters stopped 'loving' her since they only did because of it...my hope is that they would start tearing everything apart from other shifters to vamps ect.
I also remember a pal stating that a W:tA were was "Death on Two legs...with fur"
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Date: 2012-07-20 05:24 pm (UTC)Starting with Anita. It is, after all, the traditional ending for villains with mind-control powers.
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Date: 2012-07-20 10:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 12:11 am (UTC)At least in the WoD. Wraiths by virtue are the least dangerous since they pretty much only stay in the shadowlands/umbra.
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Date: 2012-07-21 04:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 02:10 pm (UTC)The strong bloody kingships and the contests for leading areas? That seems pretty standard for Sept leadership, depending on your tribe (Shadow Lords & Get of Fenris, I'm looking at you).
And there are partial changes in various books. Just in the AB universe, only the strong can do them (theoretically), while in W:TA, anyone can do the 5 forms, although, if I recall correctly, the between forms (glabro & hispo) are harder.
Anyhoo, it's not a direct lift. Then she would have gotten her butt sued. However, it's still easy to pick out the influences in the bones of how the groups work (or direct rips in the case of the vampires). Oh, and the low numbers of different shifters in the original ABverse before it got retconned? Yeah, that looked a lot like W:tA as well.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 03:46 pm (UTC)It occurs to me that a Garou transported to Anita Black world would probably find the whole set of shapeshifters to be deeply depraved and extremely offensive and probably of the Wyrm... (will now happily imagine a Garou pack going on a rampage through Anita Blake's little empire...)
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Date: 2012-07-19 10:35 pm (UTC)Except... they don't run ANYTHING like wolf packs. I can give her a pass on some things like the alpha because it's been a common misconception and it's been only recently that it came to light that how we conceive of "alpha and omega" stuff isn't correct-- but stuff like the lupa and the second-in-command... that is creepy and all rape culture grossness and human militarization. Also patriarchy (man is leader! /chest thump)
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Date: 2012-07-19 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 03:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 05:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 04:08 pm (UTC)I'd love to see the concept explored by a good writer, though.
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Date: 2012-07-20 10:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 09:04 pm (UTC)animals, after all, do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.
LOLLLLLL
Yeah, they are very animal-like, which is why some of the stuff is weird to be, like the leopards and tigers living in groups and answering to a leader. If all this stuff is coming from their animal side, why is said stuff often very different from what the real animals of that type(s) do? I could buy it as being a result of their beast nature better if they actually acted like their respective beasts instead of basically all the same. Not that I'm saying you're not right, just that LKH, as you also pointed out, isn't a very good writer so what could have been actually been COOL to me (werebeasts that are REAL animals!) just makes me scratch my head.
She has a tiger of every color now, according to Wiki. Alex is the red one, and Mephistopheles (yes, really) is the gold one.
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Date: 2012-07-19 09:57 pm (UTC)Yup, true this. I'm admittedly a bit grateful for it, since I love rats and thus am quite fond of wererats; I've heard she finally fucked Rafael though :C Which also makes him, I think, the only non-white guy she's ever done. No, wait, him and Lisandrello, another rat. Actually, I don't know if they're ever mentioned as being Hispanic, I'm just guessing from their names. But yeah, rats at least are generally un-cool enough to be safe from her DoomCrotch, thank goodness.
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Date: 2012-07-19 10:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 11:13 pm (UTC)http://anitablake.wikia.com/wiki/Cynric
Nick's entry says he's been with his Pride *since* he was 19, so he's probably in his twenties, yes. It's Cynric who was 16 when she met him and 17 in Bullet...dunno how old that would make him now but yeah
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Date: 2012-07-19 11:26 pm (UTC)aka why I hope that Peter (from OB, Edward's gf's son) never makes a reappearance, as I think he'd be in his late teens now D8
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From:no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 11:15 pm (UTC)I'm glad I stopped reading.
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Date: 2012-07-21 01:50 am (UTC)Rats and swans are both fairly individualistic critters. If I was a wererat, Rafael would be the ex-King about ten seconds after he made that deal.
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Date: 2012-07-21 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 10:18 pm (UTC)Anita really isn't a nice person.
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Date: 2012-07-22 09:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 03:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 03:29 pm (UTC)These various shifters should be pulling together due to shared pain/abandonment, they would be putting up their own traditions/beliefs to replace the ones they were forced to leave behind, they would make their own society, rules, structures ect. These groups would have a blend of human and animal behaviours and traditions/instincts.
But we get none of that...weres seem to have one role in the AB verse, to be at the beck and call of the vampires to be used as cannon fodder in the vamps fights, to give power and protection to vampires and if you are lucky get some sort of stability in return.
Pretty crappy life indeed
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Date: 2012-07-20 07:04 pm (UTC)...So, of course, LKH couldn't write that for beans, if their culture didn't eventually involve/lead up to shagging Anita. She makes it seem like she believes Anita's cooch is the ultimate in any POOR MISTREATED ABUSED
HOT SEXY STRIPPERWOOBIE WERE'S life. Ugh, so much wasted potential!no subject
Date: 2012-07-23 08:20 pm (UTC)You'll find that this argument often come up when it comes to the dominance of alphas in paranormal fiction, especially when talking about werewolves. Despite the fact that there aren't really "alphas" among real wolf packs - at least, not in terms of how popular culture defines the term - so many authors will use the term to justify the male (and yes, it is usually male) werewolf's atrocious behavior towards the heroine. "Oh, he can't help it, it's his alpha instinct rearing its head! He has to be a domineering, aggressive, and abusive brute, that's how alpha wolves rule their packs, right?" Too often, it's just a case of projection, of justifying harmful human gender roles through animals.
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Date: 2012-07-20 09:00 pm (UTC)Don't mind me.
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Date: 2012-07-20 09:08 pm (UTC)not that a balding chubby guy will get any attention anymore in this series. You are no longer important unless you are someone Anita/LKH finds bangable.
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Date: 2012-07-20 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-20 10:10 pm (UTC)/flees
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Date: 2012-07-21 12:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 01:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-22 02:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-23 09:43 pm (UTC)