A touch off-topic. Sort of.

[beansidhe.livejournal.com]

Howdy. Long-time lurker, first time poster; loved first few books, dismayed and increasingly disgusted with following books, et cetera et cetera, usual-first-post-intro.

I was meaning to comment on This thread a month ago, but then life got in the way and too much time had passed for my comment to be, um, timely.

But in that time the comment became a question: why is it in the Anitaverse, or any other sci-fi or fantasy universe which is like a mirror version of the "real" world (Spider Robinson books, De Lint books, Butcher books, Buffy and/or Angel, and so on) does no one ever just accept magic or the supernatural when presented with it for the first time? I mean, is there no such thing as Sci-fi or fantasy in these alterna-verses? Have they never heard of wizards before the guy in the duster lights candles from across the room? For example, if someone told you they were a fairy IRL, you would say "Oh, of course you are," and then inside your head tack-on "oh, you sad, sad, delusional little person." But if they showed you it were so (bang-flash, whisking you to underhill, or whatever it took to prove it to you), and were calm and non-threatening about the whole thing, would you be slightly disturbed but eventually accepting, or would you do what EVERY "mundane" does in all the alterna-verses when faced with the metaphysical: scream, claw your face and tear your hair screaming "No! It's not real! Nothing like this is even remotely possible! I have never heard of such a thing!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!"

Well, maybe not that dramatic, but you know what I mean. The only time I've ever seen anyone come close to acceptance was in the last season of Angel when Connor showed back up. But other than that, the "Nooooooo!!!!1!!!!!!one!!!!" reaction is across the board.

I'm not saying that, as sci-fi or fantasy readers, any of us (or anyone else I know) automatically believe in goolies and goblins and vamps and such as facts of life, but haven't we (and almost everyone else I know) been enjoying speculative or fantastic literature for as long as we've been reading, and therefore have at least heard of such things as vampires and were-whatevers? Why is it so hard for EVERYONE who isn't a vampire or were-whatever in the books and TV shows to buy it when it's looking them in the face?

Thoughts?

*if this is an inappropriate post I'll take it down. Thanks for reading.*

Comments

[dan-lian.livejournal.com]

It's the fact that we can, objectively, say now: "Here's what I'd do." Our minds plan for the eventuality, but when it might happen--still, faced with such a breach of logic, something that shatters our perceptions of established existence--I'm pretty sure everyone would have a moment where they totally lost it. Would people adjust? Likely, yes. However, that would shatter the worldviews and the fact that the real world ISN'T what they thought, and especially when you're talking fictional things--I mean, I know I'd lose it if I found out my dog was actually a weredog or such.

My mother did battered women's & rape crisis counseling since I was 6. I grew up with the "if something happens, you get their license plate" mentality branded into my head from that point on-D.A.R.E in school, general safety classes, etc. In my freshman year of high school, a friend & I were flashed and possibly could have been kidnapped while we were out taking earth samples for geology class. I was in such shock that I'd actually been at school, and this guy had tried to get us to get in his truck, and then he flashed us... I totally forgot the license plate.

Objectively, like knowing "Oh, here's what I'd do if existed", I knew I should remember to get his license plate number. When it actually happened, I was just so much in shock that we went back to class in horror (and my friend in tears) and spent the rest of the day with the counselor & giving statements to the police. We can hypothesize all we'd like, but when you're confronted for something that should not be in the world view you've been raised in, it's entirely reasonable to have a stage of denial where you spazz and lose it.

[beansidhe.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Now that I think about it, it was sort of a stupid question. :-)

[dan-lian.livejournal.com]

Eh, I'd like to think I'd eventually get over the spazz, but... :) I know I'd have a bit of a WTF!? moment.

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

It's funny that you mention Spider Robinson's books, because I remember the Callahan's Bar etc. stories weren't like that at all... there were always time travelers, aliens, talking dogs, etc., (even a fairy! Or, um, two, actually) wandering in, and people generally accepted that pretty readily ("A talking dog? No, you're screwing with us..." *dog talks* "Wow, I guess the dog really does talk"). And in his Time Pressure, the main character basically goes, "Cool, a time traveler! :D Okay, self, don't screw this up...."

Which of his stuff were you thinking of?

[beansidhe.livejournal.com]

Okay, that was a bad example, partly because, you're right, there really were no freak-outs, but also because no one who had been to either Callahan's or Lady Sally's Place more than once were technically "mundanes" anymore. I guess my brain just kicked that author out because I've been working my way back through the series recently.

My bad. :D

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

Oh, okay. ^_^ And yeah, you're right, the regulars at those places were pretty much in the "other world".

[ditaykan.livejournal.com]

Well, I seem to remember at least one freakout by some lady who had just walked into the Place... I think her name was Rachel, but don't quote me on that.

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

Really? I guess there could have been; my memory definitely isn't perfect.

[lauramcvey.livejournal.com]

Since you cited Jim Butcher's Dresden Files, I'll use them as examples.

Let it be noted that I loathe the books*, but love the TV show. At one point on said TV show, Harry (wizard. Not to be confused with Harry Potter) is talking to Murphy (human, in serious denial magic-wise) about his family's history with dark magic, and Murphy says something that strikes me as significant. She says that magic doesn't fit in with her "rules", and she needs those rules. The world as she sees it- and she's a police officer, so she sees paticularily scummy parts of it- is scary enough without adding in demons, vampires, werewolves, and wizards. Becuase she's so terrified of a world that has even more threats than the one she's accustomed to, she rejects the idea outright. I think that's generally why non-magical characters reject magic at first. It's unknown, and it scares them. Even if they don't freak out, they will try to dismiss what they've seen as parlour trick, or some other mundane occurance. For instance, in Carrie Vaughn's Kitty Takes a Holiday, Kitty (werewolf) is trying to prove that her species exists to a Senate committee. She takes silver in her bare hand, and it burns her skin. One of the senatos suggests that she has a silver allergy. She knows werewolf legends, she knows that a woman claiming to be a werewolf who is burned by silver has a stronger case than if the silver didn't affect her, but she still tries to explain it away. It's because she's afraid of the possibility, just as several other characters in the book are. (by the way, the books are terrific. Very much recommended). If someone made a demon materialize, wouldn't you be scared?

*I'm going to be ritually murdered for that, aren't I? But my opinion stands. The prose rubs me the wrong way, I can't stand the female characters (Murphy in paticular) and the characterization is usually accomplished through awkward musing on the part of the narrator.

[lauramcvey.livejournal.com]

I could never out my finger on why the prose irritated me so much, but I can definitely tell you why I loathe Murphy, Susan, Bianca, and all the rest. I do love the TV series, though. The first few episodes are a bit shaky, but the rest are love. They took everything mediocre from the books, and brought out all the potential. It's like a colouring book after it's been filled in.
Fangirlish, aren't I? :)

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

Book 4's where he hit his stride balancing action, characters and universe. But given we're all here cause Anita Blake made us go 'Bzawahgrah!' Im ok with people not groking a series.

[nightangel486.livejournal.com]

I agree, I wasn't very impressed by the first book and it took me awhile to get through it. I didn't like harry much, especially his rather cheauvanist attitude a times, but luckily I kept reading, because around Summer Knight the books just got really, really good.

Summer Knight

[mardelwanda.livejournal.com]

For some reason I couldn't finish Summer Knight. I thought his first few books (Butcher) were bland also, but I do think each book gets a little better. I'm skipping ahead to his later books. Maybe they'll be more interesting.

[beansidhe.livejournal.com]

Fear is a pretty good explanation.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

Please stop by my LJ on the 6th and bring your own gown ;)

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Hehe, I'm not going to ritually murder you at the very least. =] I used to be a big fan of Jim Butcher, but after Proven Guilty I'm very close to becoming a disgruntled ex-fan. The Dresden books used to be about epic battles between good and evil. Proven Guilty was about Harry meddling with teenage drama. I was unhappy with this. -_-

I can see Butcher going the way of Hamilton if he isn't careful - start thinking that his characters are so intriguing that he doesn't need any plot, he can just record their soap-opera-esque lives and call it a story.

[nightangel486.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, it gets back to more of the epic-battling and intrigue after that one. ;)

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Ah, thank you. Much relieved. :D

[clover-elf-kin.livejournal.com]

I believe you're refering to Genre Blindness. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreBlindness).

In a sadly rare example of Genre Savvyness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy), the book Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher has Jeremy's friend (whose name I can't remember) happens to find out that he's raising a baby dragon--note that this is a modern-day world where most people figure magic doesn't exist. Jeremy tells her she can't tell ANYONE about the dragon, and she replies indignantly, "Of course not--I know how these things work!"

Of course, the book IS by Bruce Coville, who's quite sensible. ;-)

[wonderbink.livejournal.com]

Damn you, now you've gotten me hooked on that TV Tropes wiki!

[clover-elf-kin.livejournal.com]

XDDD Yeah, it does that. Sorry. But the site is a good read!

[tsubaki-ny.livejournal.com]

A good, NEVER-ENDING read. I can't look at that one at work, I'd never get anything done. You could be clicking all day.

(I was about to say that I think the sidekick kid on "Static Shock" sort of took everything in stride about his pal's secret identity/powers/crap, but then I realized that I really wasn't quite sure what the heck I was talking about. Lucky that occurred to me before I said anything. ~__^)

[longtail.livejournal.com]

I always wondered this myself, and I think the closest I can come is to a dream I had once.

I'm involved with the furry fandom, and I enjoy cartoons. I have a character I created that I love to draw and such.

One night I dreamt this character was real. As in, it wasn't a cartoon, it was an entirely 3 dimensional real-life...thing.

Scared the everloving crap out of me. My character wasn't doing anything in the dream but walking, but I was confronted with that it would look like in reality and I was completely and utterly terrified and horrified by what I was looking at because it was SOOOO not something within my realm of experiance.

So, I can imagine if I saw somebody proving what they could actually do magic, I'd likely freak, even though I'm familiar with the concept through fantasy books and things. As much as I'd like to say I'm a sensible, accepting, and level headed person when it comes to weird situations/people, I would not want to deal with the idea that somebody could do something that unpredictable and dangerous.

Worse if they are a predator that preys on humans.

[saadiira.livejournal.com]

I think actually that this has more to do with how the author THINKS it would be than how it would ALWAYS be. There SHOULD be a range. Some people would run screaming, and denying, this is very true: We see that all the time in real life over the subject of the supernatural. For example, I've got a friend who 'found' religion. At one time, she insisted that her house was haunted. Now, she denies ever even having said that. She also denies that I left one night, saying that something was terribly wrong. I'd been sitting in her room, waiting for her to come up, very relaxed, all was quiet. At 8 something, I suddenly had the most horrible feeling. That was the night and time that flight 800 went down, about twenty miles from where we sat. I rushed home to see it all over the news, telling her specifically that something AWFUL had just happened, and I had to get home, then telling her by phone not long after what I thought may have caused the feeling.

Coincidence? Possibly. I'm willing to accept that it might have been something else, but then, I'm pretty open to odd phenomenon. I've ghost hunted, and I've seen some damn spooky precog seeming happenings over the years. I've hopefully got an open mind.

STILL, if I see or experience something odd, I DO look for all other explanations first. Could it be a projection? An idiot in a sheet? Swamp gas? Smoke? Fog? Steam? is the electric in the house in the fritz? Does the appliance that turns itself on and off have a legit problem? Are there magnetic fields of unusual strength due to power equipment? Is there dust on the camera lens, bugs, odd weather phenomenon, the string from the bloody lens cover? Etc. Etc. That's what GOOD paranormal investigation is about.

Now, having exhausted all of those possibilities, and more, you may just be left with something that's truly supernatural, or at least otherwise unexplainable. Having come across that once or twice, I can say I'd be pretty open to the odd, though it would take a good deal more than candles flicking on to prove it for me, as that can very easily be a cheapass 'magic' trick.

On the other hand, in some ghost hunting venues, I've seen people who's FIRST explanation was ALWAYS that it was supernatural. So, there you go, the full range. The rest of us would be like...'err...did you have in an electrician, because that sounds like you've got a serious fire hazard, not a ghost.', but their FIRST response would be ghosts. I've also seen that as "Angels", or "Demons", or "Psychically gifted". Often, this is co-equal to the intensity of denial that you get from those who for whatever reason WILL not believe.

And on a final note, I do not agree about The Dresden Files. I think the books are awesome, and the show is good. :)

-Dira-

[saadiira.livejournal.com]

OH, and final note? Some of the MOST superstitious people I've ever met have been the sort to work emergency services and law enforcement, both volunteer, and professional. NOT all fit the disbeliever stereotype.

-Dira-

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

STILL, if I see or experience something odd, I DO look for all other explanations first. Could it be a projection? An idiot in a sheet? Swamp gas? Smoke? Fog? Steam? is the electric in the house in the fritz? Does the appliance that turns itself on and off have a legit problem? Are there magnetic fields of unusual strength due to power equipment? Is there dust on the camera lens, bugs, odd weather phenomenon, the string from the bloody lens cover? Etc. Etc. That's what GOOD paranormal investigation is about.

Me too. I believe in the supernatural, I have witnessed things I can't explain, but I always look for a physical explanation before jumping to a metaphysical conclusion. I'm with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle on that :D

I've had quite a few odd experiences, and no matter what, I always look for the physical explanation first, because that's how I am. It's not denial, it's a coping mechanism. I think that characters should develop their own coping mechanisms, and those should probably differ.

I still haven't read any Jim Butcher, but I loved the TV series :D

[swiftgold.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we have this hutch with a light in it that you turn on by tapping the metal hinge, and every once in a while the light will be on and no one claims to have touched it. My mom is convinced it's a sign from my grandma, though I'm sure it's probably something with the wiring and I've never seen it turn on by itself or anything. I don't debate it too hard though, since it makes her feel good :P

[booster-blue.livejournal.com]

Interesting point.

In Quentin Tarantino's "From Dusk till Dawn. The protagonist - after a good 20-minute bar fight with a room of vampires - says "Now, I don't want to hear any shit about vampires not existing. I know that. I don't believe either; but I do believe in my eyes, and what I saw were mother fucking vampires." And the remaining survivors pretty much were in agreement with him. They even went so far as to cite classic movies for reference in destroying the blood suckers ("We just need two sticks to make a cross. Peter Cushing did it in the movies.")


So, I figure it's a matter of how the writer/director wants to tell the story.

[notadoor.livejournal.com]

I hang out with a bunch of Otherkin and pagans (my college attracts eccentric people like a lamp attracts moths) and I've experienced some stuff that I couldn't find a physical or rational explanation for.

But even when it's a case of "once you've eliminated the impossible, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" it's still really hard to convince myself that it wasn't some kind of mass hallucination. We live in a scientific world, where things are rational and organized and this shit just doesn't fit that pattern.

Conjure Wife, by Fritz Leiber, does a really good job of showing how a "mundane" goes from disbelief to belief. The main character is an anthropology professor whose wife (and all the other faculty wives) are secretly witches. It's probably out of print right now, but it's very well-done. I recommend it.

*de lurks*

[marumae.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting question, and it's true when presented with evidence why don't we have SOME people just accept it and move on? I think because we live in an age where some of the greater, older mysteries of human civilization are being easily discounted with natural explanations so, it's getting I think for some people "foolish" to still believe in the existence of such supernatural/magical/paranormal things. Having a healthy dose of skepticism and realistic viewpoints of the world is viewed positively by people. While I don't think people would hardheadedly say "NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOO!!!! ", to me personally the most realistic way for a character (or indeed a real person) when presented with such things will end up being: There will be people will probably view things with raised eyebrows and a hestitating acceptance personally. They accept that something is happening and that at the moment they can't explain any of it, but they're going along with it, just to be safe but not delve headlong into it without knowing the real consequences. Which I think might be viewed as foolish, and it can be.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I think people are a lot more flexible in their worldviews than these authors seem to think. It's true that we will hold on to our current understanding of the world as long as we are able - we hate the idea that we might have to start over from scratch - but at a certain point, I think most people will calmly accept that they really were wrong, and set about trying to learn how things really work.

I mean, I have experienced a few things that I don't think can be reasonably explained away, but I never went hysterical about it, or went into denial. I mostly just went, "hey, cool. The world is more interesting than it looks." =]

The only time I ever saw a character in a fantasy story be calm about the whole thing was in The Soprano Sorceress. The heroine is transported to another world, and while she's a little shell-shocked, she immediately starts asking questions and trying to come to terms with her new reality. That struck me as realistic - you can't disbelieve in every single thing you see, after all, and even if you think it may be a dream, you might as well work on the assumption that it isn't - if it is, you'll just wake up soon anyway, so it doesn't matter what you do, but if it isn't, then you really need to start taking the situation seriously. =]

[dwg.livejournal.com]

I kinda think it's because of the Scientific revolution -- suddenly all those old stories about demons and witches can be proved to be other, more mundane things like mental illness, or pyschotropic herbs. As a whole, people are smarter and it's comforting to be able to demystify some things that used to terrify us.

On the flipside, if you tried to explain to someone say, a hundred years ago, that we now have machines that we can talk to people all the way across the world and beam moving images to them, etc. they'd probably think you're crazy, or talking about magic when really, all you mean is a computer or mobile phone. I had a chat with my grandmother not that long ago about that sort of thing, because there were scifi stories written a hundred or so years ago about things like ships that moved under the ocean, organ transplants, and lasers.

[leggomylegolas.livejournal.com]

What confuses me is this: isn't the whole point of the LKH universe that people already know about vampires and shit, seeing as how there are laws and protest groups and all that noise? And if everyone knows that they exist, why do they freak the fuck out when they are confronted with it?

I mean, if we found out tomorrow that vampires actually are real in the real world, there'd be shitloads of newspaper stories, tv documentaries, etc. etc. etc. and everyone would be fascinated and horrified. I'm not saying I wouldn't then be frightened as fuck if I was attacked by one, but I wouldn't have some kind of psychotic break.

[amamelina.livejournal.com]

there are. In LKH's books, they all know that vampires, therainthropes, fairies and magic exist. There are laws in place to protect both the monsters and the humans. There are laws in place about killing with magic.

However, I noticed in the early books that RPIT tried to keep the number of monster kills out of the public eye. It was a whole, "Let's not spook the good people" kind of thing. A flesh-hungry zombie tears up a family, they'd rather have the public believe that a human seriel killer is on the loose then a monster. Why? Because they felt that the panic level would be less if the killer was a human.

[moonsinger.livejournal.com]

I think the reason why many people don't accept paranormal phenomena or wouldn't if they saw it is because they are too close minded.

I like to think that the only things that would make me freak would be something like a Cthulu or a fireball being launched at my head.

[wonderbink.livejournal.com]

Perhaps because the supernatural has migrated to the realms of fiction. I think even meeting, say, a character from an ostensibly 'realistic' genre like a murder mystery or something would be a bit of a shock to the system. "But you don't exist!" Ditto vampires, wizards, fairies and so on.