Fan Fic

[shalotts-lady.livejournal.com]

While regularly assaulted by LKH's abuse of the retweet recently, it made me remember something I meant to ask the lashout crew awhile ago.

What is LKH's standpoint on fan fiction. I remember her tweet about how she'll be forced to take legal action if people provide her with links or discuss their fan fiction in the Meritaverse with her. Is this a common thing authors do? Or is LKH just stiflifing my muse?

(also, I have no idea what to tag this as!)

Comments

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

LKH is pretty anti-fanfic. Not quite Ricean, but you'll note that fic off of her works is banned from ffnet and various other places.

It's very uncommon for authors, actually. Most of them ignore it, even when someone brings it up. There's a bit of a legal problem for THEM, because of fear that someone will say an author/writer/whatever read their work and then used it without giving them credit. And whether or not an author can actually win a lawsuit against a fanfic writer is still up in the air, too, as there are plenty of legal arguments for and against it in various countries.

[anaquana.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly, she is 100% against fanfiction.

As for other authors, it varies widely. Yasmine Galenorn is VERY adamant about no fanfiction with her characters, but others, like Melissa Marr, are okay with it as long as it doesn't get sent to them. The reason for that is so they don't get sued for "theft" if they write a story with a plot similar to a fic they were sent.

The legal waters are very muddy when it comes to ff, so I don't know what, if anything, an author can do about it other than send a cease and desist notice.

[moonbeamdancer.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she is, you can't even mention it. But she's okay with fan art and people dressing up as her characters.

[fannyfae]

I had heard that LKH wasn't only anti-fanfic, but she and many within her fan base seem to have the idea that she pretty much invented the whole genre, or is responsible for it to have reached the levels that it has in fantasy and mainstream novels.

[jerel.livejournal.com]

J. Michael Straczynski, the creator of Babylon 5, used to post to the B5 newsgroup. But one day someone posted a story idea to the group that was very similar to a script that he (JMS) had just finished. That apparently worked out fine--no one sued him--but he was of course concerned that the next coincidence wouldn't come to a harmonious conclusion. So the moderated B5 group was created, as a way he could still interact and avoid any kind of creative/legal entanglement.

Which, I think, is why a lot of authors, creators and so on are okay with fanfic and the like, as long as they can pretend ignorance. Their studios and publishers might not be so forgiving--after all, the creative work is how the corps make their money--but I haven't seen a lot of instances of them going after the fan authors.

OTOH, you have people like George Lucas who encourage fan works, as long as no profit is made and the franchise's image is not tarnished (Han turning into a genocidal maniac, Han/Luke gay porn films, etc.)

[omizu.livejournal.com]

There are a few authors that don't like fanfiction. Here's a few:

P.N. Elrod
Raymond Feist
Terry Goodkind
Laurell K. Hamilton
Robin Hobb
Megan Lindholm (Robin Hobb)
Dennis L. McKiernan
Robin McKinley
Irene Radford
Anne Rice:Anne Rampling:A.N. Roquelaure
Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb

re: fan fic

[cherose228.livejournal.com]

Hi, all:

There's a lot of writing that goes on out on the web, and most of the authors really don't LIKE fan fic. Most of them, as has been previously said, ignore it as long as nobody that writes it is trying to profit by it. Some of them - like Sherrilyn Kenyon - actively encourage folks to write it and send it to her. She's compling an anthology of fan fiction, or so she's said in the past.

That said, I wonder what lkh is going to do about that "unauthorized" book that's being flogged on Amazon. There's also a thread on one of the Amazon forums containing some REALLY well-written and presented alternative endings to the WhoreNita series. Given h's penchant for suing people, I wonder what she'd do if she knew about *THAT*.

-,'-,'-,'--@

Re: Off Topic

[triss-neya.livejournal.com]

I.. actually wasn't able to even finish the first one O_O... Fantasy lover is the first one, right?

Are there any other writers that are very Kenyon like that should be avoided? Because there is quite a lot of paranormal/ urban fanatsy books these days and so little time and money :(

[magdalen77.livejournal.com]

I'm doing Nanowrimo as well. My first time, but I'm about 35-40 years older than your middle-schoolers. I'm not going to fan-fic.

IMHO LKH is afraid that fan-fic authors will do a better job writing in her world than she does. I know that Eric Flint has encouraged fan-fic as well as other professional writers to write stories for his 1632 universe.

[matrixrefugee.livejournal.com]

Speaking as an avid fanfic writer, I find it *harder* to write fanfic, since you're working with another person's creation, and only they know exactly how their universe works and what really motivates their characters. It's very hard to get the "voices" right, too, so that they sound like themselves and not the viewer/reader's impression of them. I accept the fact that some writers have "no fanfic plz" clauses in their contracts, etc: it prevents a lot of the badly written crap that clogs the archives on fanfiction.net, et al. But at the same time, I wish that fanfiction wasn't as frowned upon here in the States. Fancomics and fanfiction, known as doujinshi, are accepted and even encouraged in Japan: a lot of manga artists got their start in this field, and it's a fun way to hone your craft.

[matrixrefugee.livejournal.com]

I started writing fanfiction in earnest when I was about twenty-two, and have been fanfic-writing for ten years now, not including some stuff I scribbled back when I was about eleven and I fell in love with Beatrix Potter's little-known novel-length book "The Fairy Caravan", which tells a "Wind in the Willows"-like story about a dog and pony show-type circus run by... a dog and a pony. Since I loved talking-animal stories, I took it upon my then very young shoulders to write the further adventures of the motley band of performing animals. The results weren't very good, though one bit involving some trouble-making Gypsy-like crows and cats (don't ask!) shows some promise (I'm tempted to heavily revise it to make it fit for human consumption :: laughs:: )

[triss-neya.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on what parts of writing we're talking about. Regarding the worldbuilding fanfic clearly makes it easier - the world is already done, it's a playground, all set, ready to move into.

Writing for canon characters and keeping them in character is the hard part. Many get it wrong because only the author realy knows how the characters would react in any given situation.

It's interesting to note that the most common accusations against bad fanfiction stories are based on them being OOC (out of character) or featuring a Mary Sue. Essentially characters not being the way the book author would have written them.

Myself I always found it more interesting to read fanfics that flesh out the minor characters of the canon world because they give more leeway for the fan writer's own ideas and are less restrictive. And crossovers, I love crossovers, because the 'playground' is not just from one book/series/film but is a mix of two or more (though the more the worse it gets) so gives the fan writer some space to be creative about the worldbuilding too.

But no matter how hard you worked on your fanfic, how well it's written and how many people liked it more than the original, you can't really claim it as entirely your own creation - you were basing it on someone else's work. You can't publish it either.

[ktoth04.livejournal.com]

Your icon is awesome.

[lady-fellshot.livejournal.com]

It depends on what you're trying to foster I suppose. What fan fiction boils down to is writing with restrictions. If you are giving writing prompts to a class, those are still outside restrictions placed on a new writer's work. I just think of them as training wheels, regardless of where they came from and that's ok. But I will concede that little kids probably should be encouraged to do their own world building, if only because it's fun.

A pre-made anything doesn't make writing easier. It just gives a jumping off point. :P

[matrixrefugee.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was one of George R.R. Martin's arguments against fanfic, that it was "taking the easy way out". He has a point -- no doubt there's a hundred thousand tweenagers posting horrible "Twilight" fanfic that's somehow worse than the books at this very moment (Though I've seen Twi-fic that was actually very good) -- but if you really love the mythos and the characters that live in it, and you're really trying to make them sound like themselves, it's hard...

[lady-fellshot.livejournal.com]

I sort of agree with that. The 99% crap/1% gold ratio applies to all fictional writing, fanfic or not regardless of where the original source material came from. I've heard of awesome, awesome fan fic stories coming out of the most atrocious of original fiction, making the re-envisioning more than the sum of its parts. Hell I feel that way about a very few of the Star Wars books, where the spinoff was soooo much better than the original.

[katekat]

Just a side note to this - legally, I know, there are no firm and official takes on fan fiction that have been tried in a court of law. But socially defined? Fan fiction is not plagiarism. It is contributing, adding, exploring, critiquing (and often twisting) canon for the purposes of play. It is an imaginative act. I know you don't want to risk your middle school students, but instead of telling them 'no' because you feel (and they think) writing fanfic is easier, you might explore why that is a perception.

You might want to check out Henry Jenkins ... he's one of the academics who is exploring the possibility that fan fiction is not as derivative as everyone says it is, and has very interesting things to say about why you want to discuss fan fiction with your students. He has an interesting blog that gets into some of the pedagogical issues here (even though it's talking about the legality ones as well):

http://www.henryjenkins.org/2006/09/fan_fiction_as_critical_commen.html

(and most of his books are available through google books and you can check out some of his work on Harry Potter fan fiction that will definitely complicate the 'fanfic is easier to write' perspective)

[lady-fellshot.livejournal.com]

That is an awesome read. I remember similar discussions in a couple of film classes about fandoms that mirrored this essay. Thanks! :)

[katekat]

my pleasure!! since i'm both a fanfic consumer/lover and a taking a class from him this semester (and am totally buying into the new media literacies projects to stop denigrating people's hard work as 'easy' and instead interrogate the assumptions that everyone else has about it) i had to jump in.

[vlredreign.livejournal.com]

She's against fanfic cause she knows that it'll be better than that shit she cranks out.

And someone besides Anita/Merry will be getting laid. *nods*

[mystickiwi.livejournal.com]

I personally am not a big fan of fanfiction myself, but I totally think LKH's aversion to it has nothing to do with copyright fears or anything other than a sheer fear that people can and will do it better.

[mystickiwi.livejournal.com]

And I forgot to mention that I'd love to read some quality AB fanfic, because I bet some of it has great writing and great plots

[fannyfae]

This. For both reasons cited.

[shadwing.livejournal.com]

JKR tolerates it...as long as no money is being made and it doesn't tarnish the image, WB has come down hard on some HP Porn Fic sites.

Jim Butcher...when asked...did the whole "Why of course my fans would know that I can't endorse fan fiction and of course if any DID write some they wouldn't show it to me and force me to take any action....right?" *winkwink* Translation he knows its out there...but as long as it's kept quiet and profit free he's cool.

[matrixrefugee.livejournal.com]

This is one of the many reasons why Jim Butcher is freakin' awesome: he's as much of a geek as his fans. His lawyers, however... not so much.

[naeko.livejournal.com]

At a signing in '07, Butcher was asked about fanfic. His answer was basically, "I cannot endorse that in any way. *cough* But you should see some of the stuff that people write. Why would you slash Harry with Bob?! Bob is a skull!" XD

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

Naomi Novik's reaction to a question about it on her blog was basically well obviously legally I can't read it or endorse it but I hear there's some posted here, here, and here ... :D

But she used to be a fanfic writer herself afaik, so it would be somewhat hypocritical for her to be anti-fanfic now.

[ktoth04.livejournal.com]

omg that is awesome

[mystoflare.livejournal.com]

This is probably a good reason why I don't read LKH anymore (barring her craptastic books); I just can't like an author who is so anti-fanfiction that they threaten legal action against fans who write for their own entertainment, especially when it's the author who finds it themselves while browsing sites that allow fanfic. And really, I've seen some fanfic writers who move on to become really good with original works that have practically nothing to do with their fanfic works. It's not the ZOMG COPYRIGHT THEFT SUE SUE SUE! some writers make it out to be.

That being said, I'm amused that LKH/Ma Petite Enterprises hasn't threatened adultfanfiction.net with legal action. There's a whole Anita Blake section there. Maybe they like it because it's still porny? Though granted, the fics I see there are still generally better-written than the books. Makes one wonder.

RE: Kenyon's purple prose

[cherose228.livejournal.com]

Hi:

I didn't much care for ACHERON either - and I actively did NOT like ONE SILENT NIGHT, which takes place BEFORE ACHERON, and was published afterwards.

Most of what Mrs. Kenyon writes is formula fiction, which follows the same pattern and basically uses the same characters with different names, sometimes in different locations. Most of the time, I like her stuff. The latest stuff (last 4 books), not so much. Remember, she wanted to DO manga and anime to begin with. Maybe that's why it's sounding more and more LIKE written anime.

lkh's nonsense USED to be good for a laugh. Now? want a REALLY good laugh? go to the Amazon group NEW AND IMPORVED TWEET FLOG. Better yet, read lkh's stupid, pointless and completely RIDCULOUS tweets. Isn't it NICE that she's got something better to do than edit (HAH!) her newest trainwreck? Even got the newest PA to read and correct her plog. Too bad that CTNKKK can't produce better spelling and grammer.

-,'-,'-,'--@

Re: Kenyon's purple prose

[the-mome-wrath.livejournal.com]

I've only read one book by Kenyon and kept reading it until the non-immortal people were coming back from the dead after perfectly good splatter deaths. It made me loose hope for actual danger for any of the cast. Can't remember the title of the book, only that it was a freebie at a convention. It didn't make be want to read any of her other works, so I can't say if their formulaic.

But on another note, do you think LKH's writing would have at least stopped degrading if it had become formulaic after Narcissus in chains? Or would it have just made us loose the lulz from wondering what ridiculous thing she would come up with next if it still degraded?

Re: Kenyon's purple prose

[cherose228.livejournal.com]

Hi:

Got to wonder about it, yes. ANY outline book is going to be basically the same: pretty girl in peril, hunky hero to the rescue, problems to be resolved, sex/sex, erotic thoughts, more problems to be resolved, problem resolution with enough left to power the next novel. Mrs. Kenyon writes from an outline, true - and, after all she's gone through in her life, I don't blame her for writing what she knows will sell. The most amazing thing about her is that she has four series going and still manages to have a life beyond it. She's also killed off popular characters to further the storylines - which lkh will never, EVER do.


NOTHING that anybody could have done after OB would have made the devolution of lkh's writing any less inevitable. That's when she changed her
entire life to be able to dictate to other people what she would and would NOT do. What's different now about her life? An adoring trophy husband who is not longer as young as she likes, an adoring pair of lesbians in Darla's place, and worse and worse writing because she has NO brakes or oversight on what she says - nobody says "no" to her at all for any reason. Basically, whether or not she wants to admit it, she is NOT writing for the fans or writing to please herself any longer. She's writing for the money. I think that's the biggest problem that she's having - she doesn't want to write to the publisher's dictate but in order for her to keep her comfortable lifestyle and support her circle of sycophants, toadeaters and lickspittles, she's writing what she knows will sell. That's why she had such a hard time with the MSB book this time around.

Of course, ANY writer that is writing is writing to make money. That's a given, just ask Stephen King - he's on record as yes he wants to entertain BUT he also writes to make a living - and he writes what people want to read so that he CAN write what he wants even if it's not a critical or monetary success.

The ABVH and MG series are going to continue to devolve, and, eventually, lkh will not have an audience at all. One wonders what she will do then.

-,'-,'-,'--@

[lady-fellshot.livejournal.com]

LKH is thoroughly anti-fanfic. I suspect part of this stems from a fear that other people and not HER golden pen would crank out good stories that people would pay for.

Most authors I think realize that they can't stop people from writing fan fiction and posting it on the web somewhere. Furthermore, I would hope that the intelligent authors out there realize that making a big fuss over fan fiction will only spread it faster. So it's safer to ignore and avoid as long as no money is involved.

[flaveur.livejournal.com]

well, see HP, it's way too late for stopping it. the spreading is all over.

Think of star trek, that's a very profit-way to use fanfic, no ? Because I'm pretty sure star trek and star wars, are both fanfic, in the end.
And face it right too, if your characters is good enough to be fanficted, if your world is good enough, or bad... it's still a compliment of your own imagination.
If you want to think deeper into it, you can consider too that a Good Idea is Always Fanfictionned. Whatever the subject (and books are not the only think that get fanfictionned, if you look hard enough) a good work is always a good work.

If LKH was secure with her characters, she should'nt have problems with fanfic.
Because, when the original work is perfectly made, it's ultimatly this work that rest in the mind of the reader.
Voilà

[mourning-night.livejournal.com]

Neil Gaiman doesn't really care but doesn't read it. He said fanfic is like training wheels and someday they have to come off.

Louis McMaster Bujold wrote fic before she wrote original stuff but that was decades ago now.

Kelly Armstrong doesn't mind it and lets (or at least she did as of ~three years ago) people post it to a designated area on her message board so long as it's got the disclaimer of all characters/etc. belong to Kelly Armstrong on it.

I think the main problem authors have with fic stems from the lawsuits that were brought against Marion Zimmer Bardley in the late 80s/early 90s (I think I've got the period right).

[dwg.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, LKH is anti-fic simply for the risk of plagiarism, much the same way as this is why she can't read the manuscript of your magnum opus. Even if it is truly the most terrible thing in the world and only skims part of it, she still runs the risk of sitting down at the keyboard and writing something similar enough to get sued. She outlined her reasons here (http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/index.php/site/comments/josh_olson_is_not_a_bastard/) (the Marion Zimmer-Bradley fiasco is frequently brought up), and Darla denied that there were a cadre of lawyers on hand to issue C&Ds (http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/index.php/site/comments/lkh_bit_11_25_07/). Her claim is that they're all too busy and fanfic does not interest them, but again the MZB thing, so it's mostly to cover their own asses.

Long story short: Fic is okay, JUST DO NOT ASK THEM TO HOST/READ IT. It would ruin the sandbox for everyone else.

[putana.livejournal.com]

Despite her stance, there seems to be a decent amount of fanfiction out there on the 'verse. Quite a bit of crossover fanfic with other fandoms (Buffy, to name a big one). I wish there was more actually, particularly so good characters can actually get lives :D

[killiara.livejournal.com]

And don't most of the buffy crossovers have a castmember from BtVS do the equivelent of slapping Anita's wrists and going, "No. You're on your way to being a big bad. No. Bad Anita. No nookie." At least, that's how I remember them...

How I understand it.

[kuzunoha.livejournal.com]

If someone makes money off fan fics of copyrighted material then the copyright holder is obligated to sue. If they don't defend their copyright 100% of the time they run the risk of losing it. That's why white wolf sued over the whole underworld thing. It was very close to one of their books or something. As everyone else said, authors also run he risk of being sued for "stealing" ideas.

But I'm guessing it's a show so they can claim they always defend their copyright while claiming they don't read it protects them the whole stealing thing.

Edited to say: I live in the US and I have no idea if copyright law is different in other countries.

Re: How I understand it.

[briarwood.livejournal.com]

Even in the US, you can't 'lose' copyright. The obligation to take action applies to trademarks, not copyright, though they're often both cited in C&Ds.

Re: How I understand it.

[rosencrantz23.livejournal.com]

the issue isn't losing copyright, it's infringement or simply plaigarism.

If I send $AUTHOR a copy of my fanfic, or just suggest a plot, and then $AUTHOR uses that idea/plot/whatever in an upcoming novel, I could sue $AUTHOR for stealing my idea.

Happened to MZB. Almost happened between SM Stirling and John Ringo a few years back when both submitted novels with strikingly similar premises.

Eric Flint's 1632verse stuff is a unique case where he voluntarily opened his universe to collaboration both by amateurs and professional writers (though at this point only the avid amateur fan community know the plot well enough to contribute meaningfully). But while the contributing authors have ownership of their particular stories, FLINT still has ultimate ownership of the universe. He decides to close it, everyone has to pack up and go home.

Re: How I understand it.

[kuzunoha.livejournal.com]

I knew it was something "like" that.

Yay! I learned.

[flaveur.livejournal.com]

and anyone have read Never after ? I've only took a look on the first chapter (the thing were the chick decide to go save prince stuff...)Ha.
please, say what you think of the rest of the novella. I' want to have a good review.. or a bad one, it's up to you all.

[artemis10002000]

I found it interesting that when the Eragon movie came out in Germany, the German movie company actually organised an Eragon fanfic contest as part of the advertisement. I thought that's pretty awesome.

[world-dancer.livejournal.com]

Most authors are anti-fan fic. It creates problems for them. If they write something similar to a fic, someone might whine that they'd stolen the idea, even if they'd never read the fic. Addionally, all authors are obligated by their contracts to go after anyone who steals their books or universes.

PN Elrod, who also blogs on LJ and is very helpful to young writers, has admitted to doing fan fiction in her dark past. She considered it useful for practicing techniques, but ultimately a block to her own creativity since she wasn't using her own characters. She also never "published" the fan fic on the internet.

So if you want to practice by rewriting LKH, you're fine. No one is going to steal your private notebooks/harddrive. Just don't release the work to the public through any website or LJ or similar.

[booster-blue.livejournal.com]

It's not so much that the authors are anti-fic, it's just that they can't really come out and sing its praises, for fear of legal nastiness down the line. Sure, there's a list of notable names that have waged a small war with their fans over it (as posted earlier), but most are ambivalent, or just keeping hush-hush about their views.

If they come off to strong against it, they might have a huge backlash on their hands. But if they sing its praises, they get flooded with the equivalent of ff.net getting dumped at their doorstep.