Crystal

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

Sizeism is (sadly) not limited to LKH. In most media, fat people either just inexplicably don't exist, or, when they do show up, exist as an object of disgust and mockery. Guys get off lighter (Jack Black, Seth Rogan) and can even be painted as charming and lovable protagonists/stars so long as they're funny, (and it seems that a guy can be a lot heavier than a girl can before he's considered "fat" anyway) but a woman...well, if she gets lucky, maybe she gets to be the Fat Comic Relief Best Friend and amuse everyone with her food-obsessions and hopeless man-hungriness. At least she'll get to be a recurring character though, right?

It's been awhile since I read any of the AB books, but among all the problems I remember, fatphobia wasn't really one of them. There was a definite "thin=beautiful" sentiment I suppose (admittedly as much for the men as the women), and Anita got to have her cake and eat it too by weighing some bitty number but also getting to rail against those terrible awful pretty thin blonde ladies because, unlike "boys with breasts", Anita actually has ~*ENORMOUS TITTEHS~* so she totally knows the woes of being plus-sized (not that I do either as a thin woman, but, call it a hunch, I am still pretty sure that just having an epic rack doesn't gain you the shitty treatment that actually being overweight besides just in your chest does--in fact, it probably gets you some Conventional Beauty Standards Bonus Points) Other than that, though, nothing much stuck out that I can recall...

Except Crystal. I believe that was her name, anyway. In Guilty Pleasures she's one of the humans at the party/gathering that Philip takes her to (it was a mixer for humans that were in to vampires, if I recall right) and she's described as looking like a soccer mom and as being quite plump. She also was all over (gasp! how dare she!) pretty-boy Philip, and while I cannot recollect the exact words, it seemed like, in addition to the sin of being a FEMALE coming on to one of Anita's men (was her attitude about this that bad back then? I don't think so, but she also didn't really have any men at that point to feel threatened over...), there was just an overall tone of disdain for her body type in the text that even in high school, with no understanding about anything related to fatphobia or fat-acceptance, I picked up on. If this were another author, I'd take that tone of a sign of prejudice on Anita's part, probably from internalized size-issues of her own, but given that what Anita thinks seems to be what LKH thinks, I'm kind of surprised, given that LKH seems to have (or thinks she has) a somewhat size-positive attitude (note that bashing skinny women does NOT equate to being size-positive).

Can anyone else remember or cite anything relating to this sort of thing that appeared in other books or her blogs? I'm just sort of curious, since it's something that always bugged me whenever she talked about Anita as a fuller-figured woman and that's great etc., etc., but wrote about, to my memory, a fat woman with just such a tone of judgement and disgust. So, what, is it okay to be "fuller figured" as long as it's in ways that society wants and is still considered attractive (tits, hips) or just as long as you keep your mitts off the pretty stripper boys?

Or am I just remembering everything wrong? Because that is totes possible too.

Comments

[cousinmary.livejournal.com]

Anita seems to have a problem with any female characteristic that isn't Anita-like. All the attractive women (Julianna and Bella, for example) are said to look like Anita in some way. Everyone else is defective somehow, too tall, too thin, too fat, too blonde, etc.

I always thought it was funny that it was the -hyena- who was named Narcissus ;-)

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

You sound like you have the right idea. That was also the attitude of someone I knew who was so Anita-like it was scary. Like, I cannot even begin to list the ways and it freaked me out when I realized it. Unsurprisingly, we're not pals anymore!

[cousinmary.livejournal.com]

The gal who first got me into the books tried to self-style herself as Anita. She got progressively more selfish and meaner, with no regard to anyone else's feelings (also collected penguins and dyed her hair black.) By the end she had no friends, 'cause in real-life, who'd want to spend time with someone like that?

Anita =/= happy

[amiedoll.livejournal.com]

The character of Crystal bothered me too. She is described in a very ugly way, as grasping and vacant and almost Zombie like in her desire. Anita pushes her around to get her away from Philip and Crystal has a sob attack and needs to be comforted. Philip is traumatized by the groping and runs off to the bathroom with Anita for a little light petting. Later Crystal is still pouting and upset by Anita in a very juvenile, almost mental impaired way.

I don't think I ever pictured Anita as a fuller figured person, I think she even told us at one point to picture Linda Hamilton from Terminator 2, that she was short but well muscled and yeah large boobed.

I vaguely remember she was pouting to JC at one point that she is no supermodel and he replied that over the years standards of beauty have changed and that he finds her attractive no matter what was in fashion these days. It was Anita's pretty standard "I'm not beautiful" routine while the other person just gaped and said "you really don't know do you?" which has been coming up more and more often in the later books, and with the Merry series as well.

At least she does not constantly vilify the larger community, just the Blondes lol. I can't recall that many larger people in her series, everyone seems to be at a normal weight,

[amiedoll.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I accidentally hit post and can't find my edit button, just wanted to add that I can't really remember many really skinny people either.

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

No problem! Yeah, that's how I recall it--she was generally pictured as a grotesque fool who traumatized Philip just by touching him.

I think I originally pictured Anita as a Linda Hamilton type in the early books, with her scars and her hair being the most prominent features in my mind, but as the series went on the features that seemed 'loudest' to me were her so-called shortness, hotwettightness, and being incredibly irritating. My idea of her having a very curvy (big bust, big hips, teeny waist) figure may admittedly have come from how she was drawn in the comic books, though I swear there was a moment when I was just like "oh yeah right" where it was said her tits were of a size that made it impossible for her to cross her arms over them.

As far as skinny people, I was pretty sure at least some of her boys were on the thin side and considered all the more beautiful for it, especially Nathaniel, but now that I think about it I think they were more on the taut-muscular (just not freaky-huge) side, and I just PICTURED them as thin because, honestly, everything about most of them (especially Nathaniel) made me imagine the longhair sparkly-eyed bishounen of anime who are frequently rail-thin. I know there were thin women, double points if BLONDE and/or TALL, who were painted as pretty in the text, usually in connection with their thinness/tallness/blondeness, but that was admittedly not so much in a "actually pretty/prettier than Anita " way so much as "let me wangst about how society says these boys with breasts are hotter than me until my man-harem comes to tell me how much of a babe I am and spurn these same women who get jealous of me for MY uber-hotness"

But aside from Crystal, I can't recall anyone on the heavier side even EXISTING, as you pointed out, except for some men who were not vilified or made laughingstocks for it. Like, I think the fellow in the wheelchair was somewhat heavier, but he was evil because he was evil, his body type was never (to my memory) lambasted as something gross and how-dare-you-be-sexual-you-cow and such.

Sorry about all this "if I remember right" stuff, I don't own the books myself, always just used my library, which carried the series.

[world-dancer.livejournal.com]

Anita isn't fuller figured. She doesn't even weigh enough to safely give blood according to the Red Cross guidelines. That's how massively underweight Anita is.

Beg to differ--

[marveen.livejournal.com]

For one thing, define "normal". (Heh. If it's "average", the "average" woman in the US wears a size 14-16 according to somebody or other.)

For another, she is all about the thin even with guys and has no idea what real gym dudes look like or lift like. I was peeved when after several chapters of description of some guy as having a "perfect" body, we found out he was slender/thin/whatever. (I was doing powerlifting at the time and was hanging out with *really* big guys. It affects your mental images a bit.) And the most muscular guy she'd ever seen (Winter, forget which book) benchpressed only three hundred something? Pfff. Serious lifters can bench almost twice that. (My personal best is a benchpress of 278, and I'm a woman who's five-foot-four. Most men can double that on a routine basis with SRS gym time.)

[dwg.livejournal.com]

No, you're not imagining it. This is from GP:

A woman stepped into the room. She was around fifty, or maybe a hard forty. Very blonde hair framed a plump face. Even money the blonde came out of a bottle. Plump little hands glittered with rings, real stones. A long, black negligee swept the floor, complete with an open lace robe. The flat black of the negligee was kind to her figure, but not kind enough. She was overweight and there was no hiding it. She looked like a PTA member, a Girl Scout leader, a cookie baker, someone's mother. And there she stood in the doorway, staring at Phillip.

She let out a little squeal and came running towards him. I got out of the way before I was crushed in the stampede. Phillip had just enough time to brace himself before she flung her considerable weight into his arms. For a minute I thought he was going to fall backwards into the floor with her on top, but his back straightened, his legs tensed, and he righted them both.

Strong Phillip, able to lift overweight nymphomaniacs with both hands.

Harvey said, "This is Crystal."

Crystal was kissing Phillip's chest, chubby, homey little hands trying to pull his shirt out of his pants so she could touch his bare flesh. She was like a cheerful little puppy in heat.

And then Anita tells her hands off her Kool Aid, and Crystal starts to cry. Later, Madge, our delightful host of the freak party, gets described as having pale thighs "like beached whales."

To counter it, Luther gets described as having solid-fat that's almost like muscle.

On a side note, there aren't very many hairy dudes in the series either. I don't mean "I can rope a sea turtle with hair from my back," hairy, but facial hair, chest hair, treasure trails, and arms. I know Jason is a stripper so he's waxed and JC has a trail. I get that it's a personal preference thing, especially when it's coming straight out of LKH's fantasies, but...a bit of variety beyond hair/eye colour does not go astray.

[world-dancer.livejournal.com]

I always considered that scene to be a matter of wife swapping/key parties/multiple sex partners = gross & insecure. Remember, this is pure, chaste Anita. Remember her?

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

Crushed in the stampede. Not kind enough. Wow, yeah, no wonder this always kind of irked me.

RE hair: But but but if you're not hot by Laurita standards, why do you even exist?!

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Crushed in the stampede. Classy. I'm surprised she didn't throw 'lumbering' in there to replace 'running' and some reference to hippos.

[pandaemonaeum.livejournal.com]

I'm quite late to this particular one, and I remember reading that at the time and disliking Anita a lot for it. This was before I knew that LKH and Anita were practically the same person, and Anita often said things which I disliked her for, but you know, I liked that the heroine was a bit of a pain in the ass and unlikeable at times.

I remember thinking at the time "Shows what you know!" because I've never been thin, and men throw themselves at me. And I do mean throw. I'm over 40 now and I still get teenaged boys trying to chat me up at bus stops, and men who are younger than me stalking my facebook and leaving inappropriate comments.

Being perceived as attractive isn't just about being young and thin and hard-bodied and blonde and lightly tanned with breasts.

I did read Philip's reaction slightly differently, not that he was traumatised by her merely touching him, but that a memory was triggered of things that had been done to him, by what she was doing. Now I know LKH isn't really nuanced enough as a writer and I was reading something into it she didn't actually intend.

[dwg.livejournal.com]

And then Anita complained about putting on four extra pounds because of how Jean-Claude would have mouthgasms getting to taste what she ate.

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

I realize that different body types will carry weight differently even if they're the same height so what's over/under/normal weight on, say, me, will not necessarily be so on another woman of my same height...but yeah, that's ridic-sounding to me. I'm 5'4 (so just two inches taller than she is) and a little under 115, and I don't have much muscle save for in my calves and my breasts (sorry if this is TMI) are on the small side. Boobs are like a half pound each per cup size or something like that (I think?) so if she was reeeeally thin and just happened to naturally have a big rack (I had a friend like that) then I *might* buy it, but muscle too? No way.

She wants it all. She wants to be toned and muscular so as to look badass (which, hey, is cool because it fits with her job and I get tired of seeing slim fragile waifs somehow hold their own against hulking brutes in terms of physical strength just because people fear giving a woman muscle will make her unattractive and that is The Worst Thing Ever) but she also wants to have CURVE APPEAL with her FUN FUN FUNBAGS...yet, also, have a teeny-weeny number on the scale. Because anything over 120 makes you a fatty fat fatty regardless of realism regarding body type, muscle density, etc. Kinda like how she gets to have loads and loads of hot sex with hot men but oh she's still a Good Girl because she didn't want it she just HAS to do it and isn't she still also being oh so liberated and progressive by doing it...even though she didn't want to?

I roleplay on forums, and I frequently see similar things in regard to the weight ridiculousness with female characters. One recent and particularly bad example was a woman who was 5'2 (and, like Anita, the fact this made her supposedly so ~*tiny and petite*~ was harped on alot in the profile) and MASSIVE (but perky!) boobs and an itty bity waist and "child-bearing hips" and "sexy muscle" yet also wore "Size Zero" jeans and "Extra Small" tops and was a "perfect body weight" of not much more than 120 lbs. Uh, what. No. You can't have big boobs and big hips and wear those sizes, no matter how bitty your waist is, and no matter how "sexy" your muscle is, it, along with the fat it takes to make your T&A, is going to weight something. I'm sorry, but you will have to up the number on the scale, I hope it won't scar you too much.

Ugggh, I think I remember that salad thing from one of her blogs! My dad is sadly the same way. He was overweight as a young man (like, in high school) and I think it really affected him badly, because he's very fitness-obsessed to this day and extremely judgmental of heavy people. I think the case with people like him and LKH is that while they've changed their outside, they haven't gotten rid of all the self-hatred about their body on the inside and it gets re-directed back out at other people who they judge and despise for reminding them about how they used to be.

Although the extra douchyness of also hating thin people and any woman who is not her sounds more along the lines of a girl I used to know who was a lot like Anita in many ways, including that she was REALLY hateful towards thin girls and blonde girls (but thin guys and blonde guys are SEX!) but, though she was plus-sized herself, really judged any woman as well who happened to be heavier than she was...or just in any way, physically otherwise, not her (she was a "not like those OTHER bitchy girl girls!" type too)

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

Also, yeah, I can't recall ANY overweight women in the series besides her. There are some heavier men, but, whether good guy or bad guy, I don't recall them ever having been treated in the same manner by the text regarding their weight, it was just part of how they looked and that was it. Which, sadly, is a common double-standard. And yeah, that scene totally read as the "gross gross gross fat slut lol!" moment. It was just so mean and uneeded that I was curious if any similar venom ever re-occurred around the same issue in other books, since she just seemed to REALLY be out to insult this woman that I'd expect her not to stop with just one instance.

[lady-fellshot.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who is 5'2" and is pretty muscular, I don't have many curves and weigh quite a bit more than 115 pounds. But put me in the right clothing and I will look more dainty or more curvy than I actually am... until I'm put next to someone who actually is of those builds. I can't help but wonder if it's just LKH forgetting that there are intelligent ways to go about describing someone as va-va-voom in one scene and rail thin the next without turning the character into a cartoon.I'm going to play the lazy author card on this one because it just isn't that hard to pull off.

As for hating all women who aren't her... I would wonder why anyone likes her at all if that is the way she perceives and treats them. None of this is any excuse for acting like an ass towards anyone else for looking different.

[ladymina.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what I would expect from her ...
You can be thin and healthy and not order a salad
personally I cannot stand to order salads when eating out - because I hate the taste of dressings - even just oil and vinegar makes me want to gag, I like the veggies, but not in a salad
a nice steak with a potatoe is healthy enough food - no salad needed
it is totally my choice at what time of the day I get my 5 a day taken care of
- and eating out is the time for food sins anyway - because it should be special, not stuff I could as easily make at home

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

Oh god, the boy with breasts comment. I'm a size five. Glad to know I"m a boy. I don't have much in the chest department so I guess I'm just all little boy.

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

And any men who are in to you are just gay!

[pd-singer.livejournal.com]

There was one section where Anita grumped about having been a size 13 in her youth (sorry, can't recall exactly where)and was so happy to be a thin person now. Except for the rack.

I know exactly what life is like with big tits, and no, crossing one's arms somewhere is not out of the question. Honestly, they don't rule your life.

[ladymina.livejournal.com]

they can in a way, I am pretty much have the bone structure and height Anita is described at, just more padding by now - but I have been small with big boobs (115lbs on 5'2 to 5'3 frame with c-d cups )
and those tits are a curse, I have more padding and bigger boobs (the good weigth was with like 17 now i am like 140 or so with e cups) and I cannot walk around without a bra without killing my back and I already couldn't then
It also gave me trouble cheering on the ice-hockey team, because jumping and clapping with that size of boobs = bad owww

And I always felt the LKH's hate for her body and her jealousy of everyone thinner than her shining through in all the books - with the comments about smaller sizes
And boy it has annoyed me from the start - I hate this hate on anyone different than her (her improved mirror image Anita)
Personally I hang out with Model sized people and I do fine, I sometimes feel chubby around them sure, but I don't start jealous fits or make them out to be bad or anything

- not to mention Anita would hate me too - no matter of actual clothing size - I am a natural blond with the pale skin and stuff

[glimmerfox.livejournal.com]

I'm on the other end in this discussion. I"m 5'7" and 220 pounds. I am overweight, but most people will eyeball me at about 180-190 pounds. I have a wide frame, large hips and shoulders so no matter how much weight I lose, I'll never fit into something less than a size 12. The big thing is I have lots of muscle in my legs, and muscle is just more dense, so I'm much heaver than I look.

I also have a DD cup size. Can cross my arms over them just fine. Sometimes the way that LKH describes boobs sounds more like gigantomastia.

[rodentfanatic.livejournal.com]

That thing about the boobs always sounded very, very hokey to me, but since I'm small-breasted myself I could never be TOTALLY sure. Glad someone on the opposite end of the titty spectrum can confirm that Anita's boobage woes sound bogus. I don't totally think it's impossible that there are some women out there with that problem, but I'd think those would only be in cases where they were so large that a lot of other problems--actual problems (pain, inconvenience, possibly mobility/speed issues while fighting super-fast creatures, needing a srs bzns bra in order to run, etc.) and not just being unable to armcross over 'em--would result.

Does Anita ever get back pain, d'ya remember? And when she does, is it ever in any context where it actually hinders her and/or is a persistent problem, or does it just show up to remind us of her MASSIVE HOTTY HOT RACK and then go away again?