Thank you for mentioning Holly Lisle

[britpoptarts.livejournal.com]

Today I'd like to give some acknowledgement and thanks to members of lkh_lashouts that recommended that disenchanted Laurell K Hamilton readers should try reading books by Holly Lisle. I can't say I was ever a huge fan of LKH but in her earlier books (at least in the Anita Blake: Vampire Humper series), she had laid some good groundwork by creating an alternate universe populated by fantastic mythological creatures and laws and rules, albeit one that had to be created in the mid-1980s and which apparently remains stuck there to a great degree. I found out that the curious reader can tell which books might be worth an hour or so of your free time by looking for those where she thanks and acknowledges a writer's circle / beta readers. Books that lack this nod to a circle of apprently helpful peers are, in a word, self-indulgent. (Read: excrement.) For a comparison, note the change in Anne Rice's books after she, too, decided she did not need an editor or peer reviewer.

In fact, I think I'm here mostly because I am ANGRY that LKH squandered her universe and her characters the way she has, and that she apparently no longer bothers to proofread or accept criticism and suggestions from peers OR fans. It's almost like she died and a much less-talented hack who getsd of on vamp porn took over and started using her fame and fan base to sell crap. I am REALLY angry. I am also saddened, because she had the opportunity to leave a written legacy of some worth and creativity, and the tipping point where new, bad work far outweighs old, passably fascinating work has long since come and gone. In the past few years, drawn as if by a roadside accident, I have checked some of her newer books out of the library, mostly to see if it could possibly get any worse. Let's just say that I fantasized calling her publisher and offering my services as a proofreader, as I couldn't believe they actually had one oif they'd let these books go out as is. I was underemployed at the time, which made that seem like a good idea. Upon further reflection, I realized that I would hate my job and hate myself for taking it if I did, in fact, have to wade through one of her UNproofread books. Can you imagine?! Gawd!

I read books 1-3 of the Lisle's World Gates series (and there may only BE three, but it does not say "trilogy") and Talyn yesterday and today. As for my reading habits, well, I read almost everything, and fantasy novels more often disappoint me than not, so I can't say it is a genre I love unreservedly. There are few Terry Pratchetts / Neil Gaimans and many Laurell K Hamiltons in the genre.

Lisle creates logically consistent worlds and sympathetic characters. Even the "bad guys" have depth, or are permitted to seem positive at first. Some bad guys have the chance to be redeemed. Some "good guys" have conflicted morality. Her writing style is tight and clean and engaging. Her dialogue, even when using an invented vocabulary or language, is crisp and exemplifies "show, not tell". Characters have the opportunity to grow, make mistakes, die (albeit not always permanently), make sacrifices, be noble, and to have a sense of humor. Unlike LKH, whose books have steadily become more unreadably pornographic and unsexy simultaneously as time goes on, and which have had less and less plot, Lisle doesn't use sex scenes to titillate. In fact, I may misremember, but I believe two of the four books I read had none, and one book had one that was tasteful, and the last book had a reason, a plot line, character development, crisis point and so on that made the scenes important to the plot, if not vital. I don't think the character development would have been as neatly done without writing about it.

So, there you go. Author recommendation acknowledged and appreciated.

And: hello, I'm new. I went back through August or September and commented on some old threads, but this, if accepted, is my first bulletin post.

Comments

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

I happen to avoid Holly Lisle because of her opinion on fanfcition. But it's good to know that there are people who find her refuge from LKH. This means she will not be first against the wall come the revolution :)

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

It's clear if you go to her website or google 'Holly Isle +fanfiction'. But she's also showed up on a couple of boards to go back and forth with current and once fanfiction-now professionally published fanfiction writers that she thinks that if you 'steal someone else's idea or universe you should steal it in such a way that it's not recognizeable; change a couple of things, add a twist'. She comes across strongly that anyone who writes fanfiction is a hack who just can't cut the reality of doing something original.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

She'd say that authorized writers of tie-in novels have established contracts and permissions and they aren't shameless hacks who can't write anything else, they're just writers who need to eat.

I'm quite biased against the woman. I admit it fairly.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

I think people brought up 'Scarlett' the 'Gone With the Wind' sequel and she might have been puffy about that. I honestly can't remember. It was a loooong thread with another jackwipe (the guy who writes the tie-in novels for Diagnosis Murder) who went on and on about stealing hacks and plagerism and comparing fanfictioners to writing plague. They're all bundled up in my head under 'Idiots Not To Listen To'. So again, huge bias.

Thing is, I can remember feeling like them, when I was a little girl - 10, 11-. I was scared to ever let anyone read my stories and I wondered how people prevented editors from running away with your masterpieces. And it's odd to see adults with the same mindset of 'Someone may come along and write it better or not give me any credit. No. All mine. Don't touch.'

I can respect their right to have their own opinion and especially to want a say about their work. But I'm not that much into respecting the actual decision. Steven Brust and C.J. Cherryh (in her 'Foreigner' series) both write about uber-powerful natives and humans as interlopers in complex societies catered to non-human beings; in both their works feuds can last for decades and generations and assasination is a way of life. And yet? Two completely different universes. And their protaganists are different and complex in their own special ways.

And if that's not the real argument. If the real argument is that they want absolute control over their characters. Then I have to wonder why they sent books out into the world, past editors, copy-editors, publicists etc. And why they let those books be bought by various individuals - since they can't go inside everyone's heads and say 'But this is how character A is meant to be interpreted and understood'

/*gets down of McRanty Soapbox*

Sorry about that.

*de-lurks*

[marumae.livejournal.com]

I am quite biased against her as well, the above OP has every write to love whomever they want as a writer, Lisle however as Maiafay down there I think is quite pretentious. Infatuated with her own marvelous writing skills considering they aren't even that spectacular.

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

I second winterfox...what is her opinion on fanfic?

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

Never mind, I googled "Holly Lisle and fanfiction" and got my answer. She has a right to bitch, but it won't stop people from writing...just like music companies want you to buy songs...but honestly, the amount of people who download music and write fanfiction is simply too staggering to really control. They can if they want, but people will always find a way around it.

[witchwillow.livejournal.com]

I don't think she'll ever have much of a fanfcition problem myself. But that's another conversation.

As for the debate about comparing people who write fanfiction and people who download music. Especially given that the solution to people illegally downloading music is for the music industry/record companies to stop trying to hold onto an outdated model and realize there's now a way to make money from quantity.

But writing fanfiction, in my opinion, is a compliment. It's people who want to play in your world. It's like being the most popular kid on the schoolyard and everyone wants to play the game you just made up. And everyone looks to you as the leader who gets to make the rules about the game. You are always recognized as god of your universe. You are canon. Even when people disagree with what you've done, your word is law. I find people who hold on that tightly to their creations might as well become the record companies who sue 13 yr old girls and grandmother's on social security - because essentially they want to fine every little child who put a red towel around their neck, their underwear over their pants and jumped off a chair.

/end mini rant.

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

Oh, as an avid writer of fanfiction (consider it practice really...something to hone my skills.) myself, I was a bit miffed with her opinion anyway. I find it common though, among authors like her--who probably have seen a story that outdoes the original. It would irk me if I did, and I would probably be a little envious of that fact. However, I had started an original story myself (though sadly on hiatus until I get my shit together...) and already mentioned that if anyone wants to mess around with my characters (like it would happen...but you never know.) they are more than welcome too with proper credit. I do see it as flattery, but some authors get offended easy, and take fanfic as your "stealing" their babies.

As for Holly, I do like some of her workshops...and will read those. Even a arrogant author may have something to teach. Her writing style is pleasant...so I might read a book or two--but the woman herself is a bit pretentious...that I acknowledge clearly...

[bo0bo0kittie.livejournal.com]

I would be flattered if someone cared enough about my characters to create something with them. To me it would mean they loved (or possibly hated) them. Either way, they read the book. I have read a few fan-fiction stories that I liked better than the books they came from.

[catskin.livejournal.com]

I read her Sacred Texts trilogy (I think that's what it was called - Diplomacy of Wolves? Vengeance of Dragons?) and loved it, but I've never seen any of her other books in my town's shops. What else has she written?

[foxfire74.livejournal.com]

the last book had a reason, a plot line, character development, crisis point and so on that made the scenes important to the plot, if not vital.

Funny you should mention that. When I read Talyn, I got to the first sex scene and just cringed - the sex plus the first-person narration made me tell my husband "Great, one of my favorites got bitten by the LKH bug." I kept going and was very, very pleased to find out there was a reason for the whole thing. Very good read!

Recommendations...well, I enjoy pre-1990s Sheri S. Tepper - who is to politics as LKH is to sex, but if you can find her pre-"All Men Are Useless" books, she's got great worldbuilding and some interesting concepts. Grass is one of my favorite books of hers. People either love or hate Robin Hobb - excellent worldbuilding and stellar characterization IMO, but her heroes have a tendency to angst and/or be really, really stupid, and the ones I love, everybody else hates. *grin* Lois McMaster Bujold's books are always great, including the underappreciated Spirit Ring.

[britpoptarts.livejournal.com]

Heh heh! Yes, that was exactly the scene I meant. I was sitting there, reading away, all happy-like, and it was a bit of a downer. Thought the same thing, having just read the 3 Worlds' Gate books (or is it World's Gate? There are multiple worlds involved. Stupid bad memory.) Having enjoyed those, I was more than willing to seek out more at the library on my next trip. Then THAT scene. Yerk.

Fortunately, though, it all makes sense after a while.

Also, appreciate the recs. You never can tell what I'll like or not in advance. I go through reader moodiness, I think, yet am inclined to assume not liking a certain book is more of a failing on my part as a reader than gross incompetence on the part of the author. It's when I note that I'm Really Not Liking more than one of the same previously-enjoyed author's work that I begin to feel a sense of betrayal and disappointment. I read very quickly and am often doing two other things at once, or tired, so there are days I read sloppily and fail to submerge myself into the world the writer is creating--that's what I mean by failure as a reader, BTW. A good book will put me in that lovely headspace where you might have to call my name more than once to break my concentration, even when I'm not in the most optimum condition for being an attentive reader.

That usually means it is time for a nap. :) And a do-over from Chapter One, page one unless the writing was just so unbearable that this would be torture.

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, might have to check those out...thanks for the rec!

[kathrynthegr8.livejournal.com]

I am currently in the middle of "Tallyn" and loving it. I don't want to finish reading it! I hope it becomes a series.

[stefflebug.livejournal.com]

I read Talyn over the holidays (ok, so I devoured it in a day and totally ignored my partner who was at home with me) and I have to say that I loved it. It was everything that you listed about her works, and so damn engaging.

The best bit for me was the fact that it could have ended part way through, with the peace that had been put in place, but she continued and tied together all of the foreshadowing to a beautiful climax.

Her main character may have been an ass-kicker, but unlike LKH, she wasn't all powerful/knowing/mighty and did infact make mistakes and need more than some help.

I've not read passed Diplomacy of Wolves, but then I had to leave it at my Dad's when I moved out and haven't had a chance to pick it up. I did enjoy it though.

I've also read Fire in the Mist, which was one of my fave books as a teenager, and once again had a strong and realistic female lead.

[erinellii.livejournal.com]

I wasn't too enthralled with the Sacred Texts trilogy, maybe I should try some of her other works?

As for recomendations from this group, I would like to thank the many people who have mentioned the Dresden Files! I just got done reading the last one so far, and absolutely love them. By the third one, I was totally hooked, and I'm now wondering if anyone knows any good fan sites where I might be able to talk about them with someone, lol?

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

Love them myself as well...did you know the Sci-fi channel will air the Dresden files soon? Not sure on the date...but I know its this month!

[maiafay.livejournal.com]

*Whew* I thought I had missed it. It's Janurary 21st at 9pmC. It's a Sunday at least...most of their series I like ends up airing on days I have to work doubles...which always sucks. Hopefully, they do the books justice despite the face Murphy is brunnette. LOL.

[erinellii.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow! I read something on an Amazon review about a tv show, but I didn't realize it was all finalized and actual and stuff! I'll be sure to plug up the VCR!