Plagiarism?

[denouement16.livejournal.com]

I have a question about LKH and NiC that I can't seem to find an answer to.

I recently read somewhere that LKH plagiarized ideas from fanfic in NiC. Now I can't find the site that had the information on it, and I was hoping someone on this community had more information.  I know LKH is an awful writer, but I didn't think she would stoop to the level of stealing from others.  If this is true, I might finally be able to ditch my addiction once and for all.

Comments

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

Someone could have claimed that, but every good fanficer knows that you do not say that sort of thing. LKH has specifically said she doesn't want fanfic of her stuff being written and fanfic in itself is in such a shady area of the law that you can't really support that the person you're technically plagiarizing just plagiarized you....

Plus, if someone was writing fanfic as bad as NIC, they really shouldn't be admitting it haha

Oh, for heaven's sake.

[theotherbaldwin.livejournal.com]

I'll just kick it over to cesperanza, who sez what I would have anyhow, but fanfic is not plagarism and isn't illegal:

There’s been no legal ruling that says that it is (and in fact, quite the opposite: whenever unauthorized literary rewrites or retellings have gone to court, they’ve been declared transformative, and these were for-profit works, not even our not-for-profit pleasure zone.) I think when/if fanfiction goes to court—if it ever does, which I don’t think it will—it will be declared to be transformative.

There’s a huge difference between fanfic—where all the words are mine, that I put down in a unique order to convey a message that came out of my brain, even if the message is as simple as “Rodney and John are in love,” and something like music or video piracy, where the mp3 someone gives me is the exact thing that I would have paid for, and all mp3s of a song are identical. Now vidding is a trickier case, because the visual source is theirs and the music is theirs and the uniqueness is in the conjunction/editing, but even then I’m personally optimistic that the effort put into creating the unique message of the vid would be enough to get us a transformative ruling. And these arguments are being made right now about vidding and other forms of DIY filmmaking, by people who really do want to see this creative work legitimized.

But fanfic—fanfic’s a much easier legal sell, IMO, and slash fanfic even more than gen (because the message is more transformative of the original source; i.e. I am rewriting and transforming work to better accord with my sexual orientation.).
[...]

There has been no legal ruling on the matter. There’s a hella strong case for transformative use.

And if that doesn't work, here's the word from an honest-to-goodness lawyer (http://legionseagle.livejournal.com/13718.html).

Re: Oh, for heaven's sake.

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

If someone were to declare that a writer of the original work had stolen one of their ideas from a fanfic, I doubt this would hold up in court. It is not a matter of simply copying the work, it's taking some plot point or another and putting it into the original work. The author could claim that it was, in fact, an organic idea that could have occurred to anyone exposed to the original work, that the basis for it was already in the original work, etc. It would also rely on the fanficer to have specific copies of the fanfic showing that it was older than the drafts of the original "plagiarizing" work. The author could easily make claims that, while not easy to prove, could cast doubt on the fanficer: That they mentioned doing such a thing during a conversation at a convention, that a draft version of the book had been released to certain individuals and leaked, etc.

The huge chunk of mostly unnecessary text that you've quoted does not allow for the basic idea being copied. If LKH copied a fanfic word for word that would be completely different than some fanficer claiming that an idea was the same thing she had used in her fic. And if that idea was really so precious to said fanfic writer, she/he should have been putting it in an original work, anyway. Also, from the skimming I gave said huge unnecessary quote, it looked like it was referring to the legality of an actual work of fanfiction, not to the legality of someone writing fanfiction and then claiming the new original works were stolen from the fanfic. Not to mention, again, that fanfic writer is a total jerk, considering that such a claim has already ruined one notable fandom completely back in the 90s.

Re: Oh, for heaven's sake.

[denouement16.livejournal.com]

I think there's some debate here about what is plagiarism and this other thing that is actually copyright infringement. Without going into the legal tangle that is fanfic, I'll jsut give an example of the two.

Plagiarism is representing someone else's work as your own and applies to both for profit and not for profit situations. If I took parts of GP and wove them into a new novel that I claimed was all original ideas of mine, that's plagiarism and copyright infringement (plagiarism is usually copyright infringement too)

Copyright infringement has to do with the author's ownership of his or her work. If I took GP and disseminated photocopies to my friends (especially if I charged them for it), but made sure everyone knew that LKH was the author that's copyright infringement, but not plagiarism. I'm not claiming her work is mine.

Sorry for the long comment, but I'm an academic and I get to start each semester with a plagiarism lecture ;P

Re: Oh, for heaven's sake.

[randomsome1.livejournal.com]

If someone were to declare that a writer of the original work had stolen one of their ideas from a fanfic, I doubt this would hold up in court.

Actually, it has prevented books from being published. See: the mess involving Marion Zimmer Bradley.

[mitrian.livejournal.com]

All I've found so far is this (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php?title=April_10%2C_2006):

"On April 10, 2006, Narcissus in Chains plagiarised agtkrycek, Angelrhose, beellegee, Black_Rose_Fallen, Chaos Dragon, Kalika, Lisa_Evelyns, Marasmine, Melanie Eden, Miguellawolf, bleedtoblue, Narcissus Unchained on Pomme de Sang, Raintiger, SatiricalPhilosophy, PDS, saturdays_angel and WishUponAStar. The fandoms involved were Anita Blake, Prison Break, and Supernatural."

[ladymina.livejournal.com]

not one of them got plagiarised by lkh - just a usual troll

Aha!

[mitrian.livejournal.com]

Found it!

It's not LKH plagarizing. It's someone plagarizing others' fanfic, and posting it under several nicks, including 'Narcissus in Chains' - info is here (http://community.livejournal.com/stop_plagiarism/2006/04/10/).

Re: Aha!

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

That sounded weird, since doesn't LKH say that she doesn't want people writing fanfic?

And given what happened to the Darkover books, you'd think fanficcers would be smarter than that. Oi.

Re: Aha!

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

LKH say that she doesn't want people writing fanfic

She does, thus why there's no category for LKH works on ffnet and places like that. A few other authors don't like fanfic, either, and have even threatened legal action (::cough::AnneRice::cough::)

Re: Aha!

[lauramcvey.livejournal.com]

And then she goes around bullying fanfic authors, not to mention harassing them. But she's Anne Rice, so naturally, she's justified. Mind you, a Google search brought up at least one fanfic page.

http://www.angelfire.com/rant/croatoan/ (I don't know how to make the link texty, sorry)

Re: Aha!

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I vaguely knew someone who got a C&D from Anne Rice back in the day. Of course, the people went about protecting themselves in various ways...there were some fics that you could only get through email. And they didn't even call it fanfic. And now things have died down a bit, since Anne Rice is too busy making love to baby Jesus or whatever.

Re: Aha!

[summersdream.livejournal.com]

Didn't the Anne Rice fics all become "Fan speculations" or something?

Re: Aha!

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

Yep, they were called "specs." The only problem was that it made it difficult for newbies to find.

Re: Aha!

[lauramcvey.livejournal.com]

I found some, actually. I'm not *that* big a Rice fan, so I wasn't interested, but I felt like trying.

Re: Aha!

[vmisery.livejournal.com]

*snerk* Jesus fanfic.

Re: Aha!

[ladymina.livejournal.com]

basically - just don't advertize the writings too much - I think
at least that was the last stand we had on fanfic in general and more picky authors ...

Re: Aha!

[lightly.livejournal.com]

Ahhh yes, fun times.

Re: Aha!

[denouement16.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I must've read something about this person named "Narcissus in Chains" and gotten confused. I wondered about this because I knew LKH was so resistant to fanfic, so it didn't make sense that she would be aware of stuff that was in fanfic.

Re: plagiarism

[ladyravana.livejournal.com]

You know, there has been some speculation from me and a few other friends of mine in the fandom that LKH actually has stolen ideas from fanfic authors, and while she publicly denounces fanfiction, it's been speculated that she reads it on the sly, and copies the ideas. I have read my fair share of Anita fic, and seen a few things in the books that were...suspect, and there were times when I felt a sense of Deja Vu, thinking "Didn't I read this somewhere before? This looks awfully familiar." I even had one friend who says that a line from one of her fics was in Cerulean Sins, quoted word for word, and that made her more than a bit suspect. Of course, nothing can be proven, and it may very well have been a coincidence, but it makes me wonder.

And of course, in DM there was that whole "vampire pheromones" that's in Kim Harrison's books, and it looks like she toes the line and swipe from better authors, and considering who this is, I wouldn't put it past her to be low enough to steal fanfic authors who write far, far better than she does. But then, if she was outright stealing fic ideas, I think that her books would probably have more/better plot. But then, this is LKH the technophobe we're talking about, and she likes to live in a happy lil' bubble of denial, and think that her awful writing is, for the most part, her own, and she indeed pulled it all out of her ass all by herself.

And while certain things might make me squint suspiciously and go "Hmmm" I don't think there'll ever be any real concrete proof, alas. But as I've said, all things considered, I really wouldn't put it past this woman to not steal another's fanfic ideas, because when you think she can't sink lower, she hits rock bottom, and keeps digging. I honestly think she is just that shameless, pathetic, spineless and cowardly just like the rest of her despicable, loathesome, slimy, moronic cronies.